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    #46
    I agree that Karate needs the 3 Ks (Kihon, Kata, and Kumite), but Kata is not JUST those formal mandancing patterns. Kata can also mean the 2-man variety which I feel is more valuable and relevant to MA in pretty much every way.

    I'll tell you what officially made me stop ever doing kata except one in a blue moon on a whim, when my Judo school moved into a slightly less ghetto locale all of my instructors, the gendai jjj that the instructors x-train sharing space with us, we had an in-house seminar (for lack of a better term), which our teacher's teachers there. Ernie Cates did a demo of a guard pass into scarf-hold. The technique demoed wasn't so much the big deal (though it helped my scarfhold for sure which definitely helped me in general), it was that he told people to do it slow and repetitiously and bitched about people using uchi-komis as a warmup instead of as KATA (meaning focus on perfecting the form, doing every single nuance perfectly).

    I already looked at line drills as improv kata, what then is the difference between a sparring drill and a 2 man kata? Japanese Sword 2-man katas look like fighting to me (and are still beautiful), why shouldn't striking katas be the same? What is the difference between pad drills & uchi komi/nage komi in judo? You should look at your form in sparring & pad drills with the same critical eye you judge kata with. The only difference is, the standards of good form have different criteria.

    P.S. Fox, I don't see one why not doing kata has anything to do with someone a "tough guy". It's like, I have to prove I'm part of the not-a-meathead MA sect by giving you the secret Masonic mandance of Bassai Dai (Japanese for "Truffle Shuffle").
    Last edited by maofas; 7/31/2009 9:20am, .

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      #47
      Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
      That's silly. Under your theory, karate is stuck in the mud, unable to move forward or change in any way.

      Karate without kata is like car without tail fins. No it's not the way it used to be.
      Ha, the tail fins were a good analogy. I really really wish someone would make a modern car that got good mileage with tail-fins.

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        #48
        Originally posted by maofas View Post
        Ha, the tail fins were a good analogy. I really really wish someone would make a modern car that got good mileage with tail-fins.
        yeah me too :laughing4

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          #49
          I hear the points made by1point and Mao , I agree with alot of what you guys say. I have no problem being in a debate , that what makes this forum live not all of agreeing in lock step.

          So ok no problem , Maybe I give Kata too much praise but to me and my stubborn thinking I think it does help . But thats me Im old and stubborn and come learning from guys like Miyazaki ,Alex Sternberg , Tom Lapuppet (RIP) who were all great fighters and all preached the virtues of Kata . So maybe im jaded .

          My current Senseis are world class and former team members of their countries national team and are both brilliant fighters and Kata performers.
          So again maybe my thinking is slanded .
          Like I said maybe if I did BJJ or MMA or Muay Thai Id feel differently . But all the masters I grew up admiring like the ones I entioned and others I got to see at tournaments such as the late great William Oliver were great fighters and great Kata to me they kinda went hand in hand.

          And I do think if you do Karate you will have to do Kata to a degree . I dont know if any Karate style is Kata-less . That was my point before why take karate if you dont want to do Kata theory.

          I think we should put this debate to bed. We can respectfully agree to disagree

          OSU

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            #50
            kumite and Sandan

            This last is
            I didn't mean by this that you shouldn't spar at all until Sandan; what I meant in the context is that you aren't in a position fully to explore all the inner meanings and implications of kata (as distinct from the obvious, surface, meanings) until then. It's when you can do that that sparring becomes really free, rather than just bashing each other with a few techniques. Re-reading the post, I should have made myself clearer. Apologies.

            I agree that this might as well be put to bed. I'm a believer, others aren't. Fair enough.

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              #51
              Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
              Fox, I recommend that you either present evidence for your arguments vis-a-vis the usefulness of kata, or STFU. It's become trollish the way you inject yourself into every damn thread with your "hey it's all opinion man but kata rocks" bullshit.

              Make your own thread where you present your arguments and thoughts, and hash it out there. Stop interfering with this site's mission of pointing people towards worthwhile schools.
              what Jesus h crist!

              kata are the best training tools I'v ever come across!

              by learning one kata one training you in over 15 techniques you learn them all very quickly as well as if you repeat the kata and perfect it you perfect the techniques.

              kata are also very could for exercise and i could go on but could be bothered i'm just in after a hard session practicing kata xD

              Heian Nidan,Heian Yondan,Bassai Dai


              for anyone who wants to look it up
              and they ARE great tools!

              so 1point2 can just go to hell every single one of your posts are troll posts or dissing.

              your're pathetic

              stay strong everyone else

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                #52
                Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
                How could it possibly improve endurance? I'll allow for balance, posture, focus (guh, what an overused term) and maybe some remedial coordination...but how are the heavy bag, shadowboxing, and pad work not eminently superior for everything except balance and posture? Don't just assert, argue and explain
                use your brain!

                kata can be like shadow boxing expt you are moving around thus using your leg muscles more as well as your arms yeat again u fail

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                  #53
                  Are you in the NYC area? We're having a friendly sparring session (throwdown) soon and I'd love for you to come.

                  Your comments are both logically and factually flawed. I recommend finding out why, then posting your findings here.

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                    #54
                    Shotokan practitioners are not allowed to comment on the purpose of kata, considering how much Funakoshi completely butchered the original Shorin-ryu practices.

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
                      by learning one kata one training you in over 15 techniques you learn them all very quickly as well as if you repeat the kata and perfect it you perfect the techniques.
                      I learned far more by doing pad work and two person drills at Boxing (haven't sparred yet) than I ever did practising kata in my Go-Ju days (daze). Perfecting a technique in the air without an opponent is one thing, actually hitting something, and more importantly, a moving and resisting opponent who doesn't want you to hit them is another thing entirely, and I don't see how kata can help teach that better than other, more effective methods.

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                        #56
                        I practiced almost nothing but kata and some minor drilling and bunkai for an entire year in Shorin-ryu, and you know what I got out of it?

                        I blocked a mawashi geri by punching someone in the fucking shin

                        and then I got my ass kicked.


                        I pitch my dime in with the "kata is worthless without kumite and isn't much more useful with it" crowd. I do admit, it also would have helped if the block we learned for low mawashi geri wasn't retarded and if I wasn't so much of an idiot that I used it in Kyokushin, but still, kata didn't help my ability to fight at all.

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
                          Shotokan practitioners are not allowed to comment on the purpose of kata, considering how much Funakoshi completely butchered the original Shorin-ryu practices.

                          I wouldnt say he butchered em he made it more palatable to the upright Japanese Population who looked down and thumbed their noses on the " lowly Okinawans"

                          He Japanified Okinawan To-de to make it acceptable to the Japanese.
                          Thus switching the okinawan names Pinan to Heian . Naihanchi to Tekki etc.
                          switching the orders of Heian shodan and nidan . taking alot of the the brutal lethal techniques so school children could be taught .

                          But I dont know if he didnt do all that would we even be discussing martial arts. or would it still be a secretive thing ttaught in secret from father to son in private.

                          I dont think no matter what art you take it would be as popular today if funakoshi stayed true to his Okinawan roots.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
                            Shotokan practitioners are not allowed to comment on the purpose of kata, considering how much Funakoshi completely butchered the original Shorin-ryu practices.
                            on some level you are right

                            as the kata change they do loose some of their meaning
                            e.g. in heian nidan YouTube - Heian Nidan - Shotokan Karate the opening move is a side block or arm catch (depends on interpretation )
                            ,traditionally this was a cat stance rather than a back stance which would represent a knee into tho thigh or a sweep.

                            this is a small example of how the kata do change but loose the meaning
                            to simply say they are butchered is wrong they are modified. to say they are butchered is like saying a fork is a butchered spoon they are both for eating but are different and like the different styles of karate the kata are still for perfection but are different

                            and 1point2 i would actually love to come and learn from you but i live in ireland sadly =/

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
                              on some level you are right

                              as the kata change they do loose some of their meaning
                              e.g. in heian nidan YouTube - Heian Nidan - Shotokan Karate the opening move is a side block or arm catch (depends on interpretation )
                              ,traditionally this was a cat stance rather than a back stance which would represent a knee into tho thigh or a sweep.

                              this is a small example of how the kata do change but loose the meaning
                              to simply say they are butchered is wrong they are modified. to say they are butchered is like saying a fork is a butchered spoon they are both for eating but are different and like the different styles of karate the kata are still for perfection but are different

                              and 1point2 i would actually love to come and learn from you but i live in ireland sadly =/

                              You and I are in the minority my friend , most people or maybe not most but a awful lot of the peeps on this website think Kata is useless and rail against it being anything more than some dance or some shit.
                              I have argued over and over with alot of these guys who think Kata doesnt help your kumite at all and you are better served doing all sorts of other things besides Kata.

                              So be warned you will get alot of flack from Kata sucks clique

                              PS Kanazawa Sensei is great

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                                #60
                                Fox, shut the fuck up. No one here has said kata suck. Your idea of the purpose of kata sucks.

                                Neither of you have a clue what you're talking about. You have only ever studied school children level karate, passed on by a teacher who didn't have a clue as to what his art actually contained.

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