Karate Do Shotokai

[HenryT]

Why this website exists

Do you two know why this website exists?

I think so, Master.
:bowdown:
To expose fakery and pretension? To give honest and reasoned opinions? To exchange views on the things we all care about and discuss them in a civilized fashion?

No? You tell me, then.

I've given you an honest and reasoned opinion, and I've tried to exchange views with you and discuss them in a civilized fashion. I'm more than happy to do that; but if all you want to do is hector and bully and badmouth, then screw you and your horsey too, as my old grandma used to say.

[maofas]

HenryT,

Some of what you say I agree with, but my main beef with your POV is saying sparring should be held off. (Now you're saying till sandan? Holy shit I almost fell out of my chair reading that.) I agree karate is not a quick fix, but that's not an excuse to complacently suck until 3rd dan (and suck for god knows how long after that while you play catch-up).

The longer you hold off sparring the longer it takes to be comfortable with it. The more of a big production you turn it into ("Ooo my first sparring sessions, finally after all these years!"), the more nervousness people will build up and have to overcome.

Words can't really express the how bad an idea I think not sparring until sandan is. It makes me ill to think people exist who actually do that. I'm not saying toss them in on their first day, but as soon as you can do a jab, reverse punch, and a front kick fairly decently, you should get in there.

The learning process and sharpening of technique isn't something you do first and then spar, they go hand in hand and the two processes help each other. You learn a technique, you try it in free-play, you see (or your instructor points out) problems in your application, you go back and drill more, rinse, repeat until you have an awesome technique.

My second beef : Fuck bunkai, it's a pointless way to learn to fight. If you want to practice techniques, just practice techniques and make up appropriate drils for them. That being said, I think it can be an interesting intellectual excercise and has historical value, but as far as practical learning how to bash people goes, fuck bunkai. Done badly it's worse than worthless and done correctly, at best, it's the most inefficient, roundabout method possible.

[foxguitar]

HenryT,

Some of what you say I agree with, but my main beef with your POV is saying sparring should be held off. (Now you're saying till sandan? Holy shit I almost fell out of my chair reading that.) I agree karate is not a quick fix, but that's not an excuse to complacently suck until 3rd dan (and suck for god knows how long after that while you play catch-up).

The longer you hold off sparring the longer it takes to be comfortable with it. The more of a big production you turn it into ("Ooo my first sparring sessions, finally after all these years!"), the more nervousness people will build up and have to overcome.

Words can't really express the how bad an idea I think not sparring until sandan is. It makes me ill to think people exist who actually do that. I'm not saying toss them in on their first day, but as soon as you can do a jab, reverse punch, and a front kick fairly decently, you should get in there.

The learning process and sharpening of technique isn't something you do first and then spar, they go hand in hand and the two processes help each other. You learn a technique, you try it in free-play, you see (or your instructor points out) problems in your application, you go back and drill more, rinse, repeat until you have an awesome technique.

My second beef : Fuck bunkai, it's a pointless way to learn to fight. If you want to practice techniques, just practice techniques and make up appropriate drils for them. That being said, I think it can be an interesting intellectual excercise and has historical value, but as far as practical learning how to bash people goes, fuck bunkai. Done badly it's worse than worthless and done correctly, at best, it's the most inefficient, roundabout method possible.

I agree wwith most of your post , I think one should begin to spar as soon as one can execute a few techniques , Maybe start off One step sparring to become acclimated to sparring . gain insight into things like distance and timing , etc

To wait to Sandan wow , In some dojos that could be way over 10 years and realistically how many students last till shodan much less sandan.

My argument isnt about the live training or the engaging in kumite or even the cardio , bag work , gym , etc , My beef is to just dismiss Kata training just out of hand as it is totally useless to me is silly.

I think Kata training along with all the other areas will help a person become a better fighter in karate , I cant answer for non karate arts.

But since I do karate thats the area ill speak of.

[maofas]

Honestly, I agree with some of the good things you point out about kata, but there's this one roadblock in your logic imo where you just sort-of assume that because a person does good kata and fights well one causes the other. I think there's only the most indirect of ties between them.

Kata has no direct effect on your fighting, but the indirect effects of improving balance, basic hip mechanics, posture, etc. (all of which you mentioned) are real. Indirect positive effects are still positive effects. I think of it as a warmup with side benifits. Spending lots of classtime doing it or constantly teaching new ones is a bad thing though.

FWIW I taught for 5 years "full" time (20 hours a week) for my head instructor, later coached 1-3 people for 2 years informally 2x a week for 2 hours. In the dojo I occaisionally taught kata because people needed it for gradings, on my own time I didn't bother.

There's no dramatic difference in the non-kata people's sparring vs. the kata people (and the non-kata people still fight like Karateka, the didn't magically morph into MT just because I took away kata which I think is a lot of people's irrational fear of ditching it).

All I can really point to is a) I notice the people who didn't do kata tend to not sink their hips enough on punches, so I'm going to emphasize that more during pad & partner drills and correct it that way. b) The balance of the non-kata people was definitely slower to develop I think. It took them longer to feel comfortable being on one leg kicking. They all wanted to box basically for the first year or so...so I started forcing them to do you-can-only-punch-if-it-precedes-or-follows-a-kick sparring. No kata needed.

So anyways imo, it's important for the kata-supports to remember they're just like any other excercise. It works certain attributes, but there are many ways to work any attribute. Most drills are good for more than one thing. When you look over your lessons, kata may fill a void or be totally unneccessary.

I think it makes a fine group warmup + side benifits. I just don't want to waste class time teaching it. One day maybe.

P.S. 1.2 kata CAN be effective for endurance. Shotokan katas are mostly low stances with jumps with big motions done at a brisk pace. It's not as good as intense pad drills, but I have pretty good cardio and (if I flipped ut and had a sudden urge to do kata again) I could get myself out of breath pretty easily running through katas, one after the next.

[1point2]

Thanks maofas, that's a valid point re: endurance. I also totally agree about letting kata be a venue for hip use, posture, and balance.

It's that so many of the people that do kata--I genuinely believe 90% or greater--believe it does ridiculous things, or that it's great as a primary training method for fighting.

[Lindz]

no need to , im not here to appease you or to try and change your mind . Go do what you think you need to for you , Ill do what works for me.

Translation. I've lost, again, and I know it. To salvage my ego, again, I will now pretend that I'm not trying to convince anyone and don't care what anyone else thinks.

and to tell you the truth most good street fighters dont need much training they generally shoot or stab or perhaps club ,they dont have the patience or disclipline to train in gyms or Dojos.

Red herring

So really this conversation is limited to us dedicated people who train first to protect ourselves and secondary for reasons like physical fitness , health , sport etc.

If that's really why you train then you should be very interested in verifying wether your training methods work or not.

[foxguitar]

Thanks maofas, that's a valid point re: endurance. I also totally agree about letting kata be a venue for hip use, posture, and balance.

It's that so many of the people that do kata--I genuinely believe 90% or greater--believe it does ridiculous things, or that it's great as a primary training method for fighting.

Thats where you are in error , not once did I ,Ill sonly speak for myself , ever say Kata alone will make you a superior fighter . No if you dont fight and you dont do all the good things YOU AND I AGREE on , cardio , pad , live training , strength training , then just doing Kata is silly . But my sole point is and I think Mao stated it really nicely , it helps , it doesnt hurt , it gives you certain things that help your fighting.

And if you are taking traditional Martial Art such as Karate Do you will have to do them , Sure I used to do them just to go belt to belt but now being older and somewhat wiser I realize there are useful applications and value to attempt to master them . You will never master Kata , maybe be somewhat proficient but never really master .

And for one last point You say pussies do Kata , I disagree it takes balls of steel to perform at a high level Kata in front of spectators intense concentration and focus. Everything is carefully practiced over and over till it becomes second nature.

In kumite one could win on a lucky kick or punch not so with kata .
Point being , sure you could be a dipshit and prance thru your Katas like you are in a hurry or you do them with power and focus and thats where I strongly believe it transcends into fighting . Look this is my opinion and nobody has to agree . And maybe if I was in my 20s and started at a BJJ or a MMA gym Id feel Kata was a waste too but Ill stick to Karate its worked for me , I enjoy it , I love doing my tournaments every few months matter of fact Mao and I know alot of the same people.

[foxguitar]

Translation. I've lost, again, and I know it. To salvage my ego, again, I will now pretend that I'm not trying to convince anyone and don't care what anyone else thinks.


Red herring


If that's really why you train then you should be very interested in verifying wether your training methods work or not.

And what is your valuable contribution to this , Even though I disagree with some of what 1point says he at leasts states his premise , whats your claim to fame , No I didnt lose , there are others who agree with me as there are others who disagree , So wheres your School , what rank are you , are you a expert or a teacher . whats your training back ground.

Before I take what you have to say serious I want background otherwise sorry no disrespect , But what you say means nada . :viking:

[Lindz]

My contribution is that you make no contribution. You state your beliefs. Refuse to provide proof. And when that doesn't work you claim you don't care. Facts or fuck off. My rank and training doesn't really matter for this specific discussion. Asking about my ranks is just a setup for appeal to authority.

[maofas]

And for one last point You say pussies do Kata , I disagree it takes balls of steel to perform at a high level Kata in front of spectators intense concentration and focus. Everything is carefully practiced over and over till it becomes second nature.

Well, I won't lie, it's scary to do kata in front of a shitload (or even a small group) of judges/spectators critiquing every little nuance. I was never as nervous fighting, even when I got an assbeating, because you had a person in front of you to focus on and deal with and if people were watching they were watching "a fight" not "you".

I don't think this has anything at all to do with making one a better fighter. I guess if the question were, "Did this help you in any was as a person?" I'd have to answer yes (reluctantly!). I'm not a naturally outgoing person, but I don't have any trouble speaking in front of large groups. I attribute that to performing kata. (Afterall, what's giving a speech when lots of people have watched you dance around in your pajamas yelling like Toshiro Mifune?)

The only thing is, as you said, you have to devote a lot of practice to it until it becomes second nature. That's an awful lot of time spent on kata.

P.S. One thing though, when people say kata is worthless, you leap all the way to "Don't do Karate". Does this mean you believe Karate must have kata to be Karate? I used to not be sure about this, but I'm positive kata-less Karate is still Karate now.

[foxguitar]

Well, I won't lie, it's scary to do kata in front of a shitload (or even a small group) of judges/spectators critiquing every little nuance. I was never as nervous fighting, even when I got an assbeating, because you had a person in front of you to focus on and deal with and if people were watching they were watching "a fight" not "you".

I don't think this has anything at all to do with making one a better fighter. I guess if the question were, "Did this help you in any was as a person?" I'd have to answer yes (reluctantly!). I'm not a naturally outgoing person, but I don't have any trouble speaking in front of large groups. I attribute that to performing kata. (Afterall, what's giving a speech when lots of people have watched you dance around in your pajamas yelling like Toshiro Mifune?)

The only thing is, as you said, you have to devote a lot of practice to it until it becomes second nature. That's an awful lot of time spent on kata.

P.S. One thing though, when people say kata is worthless, you leap all the way to "Don't do Karate". Does this mean you believe Karate must have kata to be Karate? I used to not be sure about this, but I'm positive kata-less Karate is still Karate now.

You are missing the point I think.

ok lets slow down Im saying all major styles of karate teach and preach Kata dont they , Shotokan , Goju , Kenpo , Shito Ryu , Shorin Ryu what ever you name it they teach Kata.

So if you dont want that thats fine , then perhaps then a art such as Muay Thai or BJJ is more what the person should go for.

Its not Karate with out the Kata , Its half karate , If I go to learn a style say Shotokan , I want to learn the style including the basics the kihon , the Kata and Kumite , If all I want to do is learn to fight then why do karate , I can join a boxing gym etc.

Its like a buying a car without wheels.

Ok other point , its all connected by getting up the courage to perform a Kata you learn to overcome your fear , And anything that helps you in anyway is a positive.

Not everybody is a tough guy , and like you said your werent nervous getting up to fight but scared shitless to do Kata.

Second Im not rehashing the reasons why I think dilligent Kata practice helps your fight game , thats up to each person.

But look its how I feel and Im not changing my opinion and whoever dont agree cool . good for you.

[foxguitar]

My contribution is that you make no contribution. You state your beliefs. Refuse to provide proof. And when that doesn't work you claim you don't care. Facts or fuck off. My rank and training doesn't really matter for this specific discussion. Asking about my ranks is just a setup for appeal to authority.

well from here on in unless you provide intelligent rebuttal , I will ignore , no asking you your rank is just wanting to know what experience you have are you a greenbelt or a someone that has put in alot of time .

It is not an appeal to authority buckoo , its called wanting to know if the person one is engaging in this discussion is on the same level or maybe higher .

Not for a Im a BB and your not childish bullshit , cause that would be steeping to your level.

So far all you have done is criticize without offering any creditable rebuttal.

Look others disagree with my position 1point and Maofas, they recite their reasons , fine we agree on certain things disagree on others but you on the other give nothing to the table.

And untill you say what your training and experience level , I wont acknowledge you. Because If you have a background or are an instructor Then at least you put in the required time and therefore can speak from your personal experience .

[Lindz]

well from here on in unless you provide intelligent rebuttal , I will ignore ,

There's nothing to rebutt. You've made assertions with no proof.

[1point2]

You are missing the point I think.

ok lets slow down Im saying all major styles of karate teach and preach Kata dont they , Shotokan , Goju , Kenpo , Shito Ryu , Shorin Ryu what ever you name it they teach Kata.

So if you dont want that thats fine , then perhaps then a art such as Muay Thai or BJJ is more what the person should go for.

Its not Karate with out the Kata , Its half karate , If I go to learn a style say Shotokan , I want to learn the style including the basics the kihon , the Kata and Kumite , If all I want to do is learn to fight then why do karate , I can join a boxing gym etc.

Its like a buying a car without wheels.

Ok other point , its all connected by getting up the courage to perform a Kata you learn to overcome your fear , And anything that helps you in anyway is a positive.

Not everybody is a tough guy , and like you said your werent nervous getting up to fight but scared shitless to do Kata.

That's silly. Under your theory, karate is stuck in the mud, unable to move forward or change in any way.

Karate without kata is like car without tail fins. No it's not the way it used to be.

And why do teachers of these styles teach and preach kata? I would argue that in most cases it's 2 parts mindless ignorance, 3 parts blindly following tradition, with a healthy splash of them not caring if it teaches people how to fight.

[foxguitar]

That's silly. Under your theory, karate is stuck in the mud, unable to move forward or change in any way.

Karate without kata is like car without tail fins. No it's not the way it used to be.

And why do teachers of these styles teach and preach kata? I would argue that in most cases it's 2 parts mindless ignorance, 3 parts blindly following tradition, with a healthy splash of them not caring if it teaches people how to fight.

you and I are not are not that far apart from our beliefs , We both agree on live training , and supplementary training , the bag the pad the cardio , the strength training , The one thing that we disagree is on the usefullness of Kata training.

I still dont understand why you are so against it , I never did Isshinryu so I cant comment on their Katas was it the style itself or your Dojo.

Again Im not saying that Kata alone will turn you into Lyoto Machida but how many of us are going to be Lyoto Machida anyway.
All Im saying there are usefull attributes that coupled with serious practice and talent will help your fight game.

So really I think this thread or at least this part is worn thin.

there are those who believe you are right and there are those who feel I am right.

So lets agree to disagree and called a Auchi . ok :angel8: