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  • foxguitar
    replied
    A little OT but not really

    last night in my Dojo we did some grappling and let me tell you it gave me renewed respect for grapplers whether it be wrestling BJJ JJJ or Judo., it was really tough.

    As you know Shotokan is IMHO a great striking stand up art , we do sweeps we do takedowns but we have no ground game whatsoever .

    But my sensei wants to start incorporating some grappling into the program which I think is a great thing.
    I know noway is it anyway near as intense as a BJJ dojo program but at least we are getting some practical experience grappling which for alot of Karate schools is rare.

    Like I said I really have renewed respect for grapplers , I was gassed and drained after that class. I really thought it was a great learning experience.
    Dont get me wrong we are not going to be like tiger schulman or jack of all trades Dojo master of none but the point being it was really cool

    Leave a comment:


  • mrgoshthereturn
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    Good question. No, one-steps do not involve real distance and timing. We're talking about two people standing in front of each other, then in a "ready, set, go" way (with or without a count), one of them steps back, then forward rapidly. That's what I mean by contrived.

    There's no working or playing with distance--they take a moment before the drill to set the distance, and then they follow proscribed steps. At no point do they learn about distancing in any meaningful or physical way. It's all theoretical: this is our distance. Now we go. That's not productive regarding distancing. Instead, you need the partners to be moving around freely, advancing and retreating and circling, then throwing the technique.

    As for timing, you are mistaking it for speed. Having someone punch quickly does not help me with timing--it just tests my reaction time. To learn timing, again, we have to be moving and jostling for position, then one person fires a technique unpredictably. One-steps don't do that.

    Now, if your one-steps are basically "point sparring where one person is the attacker," then none of this applies. But the ippon kumite/one-steps/yakusoku however you spell it kumite has always been the "stand facing each other, attacker steps back, attacker steps forward and attacks" contrived pattern.

    Gotcha, always good to learn the weakness in a training method.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    Doing one-steps as preparation for sparring is like getting on a stationary exercise bike to learn to ride a bicycle. They require none of the live skills--footwork, balance, timing, coordination--that sparring (bicycling) does, but it resembles something like the real thing.

    In other words, it's a useless construct that is done not because it's effective, but out of blind tradition.

    Training wheels, in regards to sparring, would be the "pads, progressively resistance partners, and sparring drills that involve movement, timing, footwork, and playing with counters and setups" that I mentioned. Not one-steps/shobu/ippon kumite.

    Ok I can see that .

    OSU

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    Doing one-steps as preparation for sparring is like getting on a stationary exercise bike to learn to ride a bicycle. They require none of the live skills--footwork, balance, timing, coordination--that sparring (bicycling) does, but it resembles something like the real thing.

    In other words, it's a useless construct that is done not because it's effective, but out of blind tradition.

    Training wheels, in regards to sparring, would be the "pads, progressively resistance partners, and sparring drills that involve movement, timing, footwork, and playing with counters and setups" that I mentioned. Not one-steps/shobu/ippon kumite.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    This statement still stands, regardless of John Slocum. One-steps might be something to do other than sparring, but they don't teach timing or distancing. They really aren't useful for much except introducing a technique, and they do that poorly.

    I agree, throwing noobs in to spar with each other, or to go wild, is often unproductive. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying teach the noobs technique with real timing, real distancing, real footwork, and a smidgen of resistance, and the results will be five times that of one-steps.

    Ok point well taken,

    But I do think at least in the very beginning it gets the students to begin to face a live opponent. Im not saying i love one steps I do think they serve a purpose , Its like riding a bicycle most people learn on training wheels sure you can do what I did and just get on the bike and fall 100 times skin the shit of out your knees but eventually if you dont give up you will be riding a bike.
    But not every body is so bold.

    Just my humble opinion.

    and I do agree with you you have to free spar ASAP and one steps are not a substitute.
    And Maybe they could be done away with .Its been along times since Ive done any of em . But Im not a beginner and as a beginner I started with them .
    Last edited by foxguitar; 8/10/2009 3:03pm, .

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    PS. One-steps, called "shobu" in my old Isshinryu school/organization, contained a few nice techniques. But containing those techniques didn't mean anything to either A) the normal students, who were busy just remembering the technique and getting their reaction speed up to par with whatever their partner threw, or B) dedicated students, who even though they worked hard at what they were given, were fundamentally spending their time practicing compliant strikes and takedowns based on theoretical reactions and unrealistic attacks. Why? Why not do it right?

    Those techniques I like in the shobu can be taught effectively, quickly, and safely with alive training methods like pads, progressively resistance partners, and sparring drills that involve movement, timing, footwork, and playing with counters and setups.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    Originally posted by mrgoshthereturn View Post
    Shouldn't one step start with real distance and timing? Otherwise your not blocking a punch/kick but a held out arm?

    Your not really punching unless your going to hit someone. The defender should have enough distance and awareness to not get hurt, after all they know your going to throw a real punch to hit them in the face. but its not sparring so only the one puch is coming. If the attackers distance is correct all they need to do is move their head back 5 or 6 inches to not get hurt. That way though the trainng is not alive, at least your learning to move and defend properly, based on when your opponent attacks, not on a count of japanese numbers?
    Good question. No, one-steps do not involve real distance and timing. We're talking about two people standing in front of each other, then in a "ready, set, go" way (with or without a count), one of them steps back, then forward rapidly. That's what I mean by contrived.

    There's no working or playing with distance--they take a moment before the drill to set the distance, and then they follow proscribed steps. At no point do they learn about distancing in any meaningful or physical way. It's all theoretical: this is our distance. Now we go. That's not productive regarding distancing. Instead, you need the partners to be moving around freely, advancing and retreating and circling, then throwing the technique.

    As for timing, you are mistaking it for speed. Having someone punch quickly does not help me with timing--it just tests my reaction time. To learn timing, again, we have to be moving and jostling for position, then one person fires a technique unpredictably. One-steps don't do that.

    Now, if your one-steps are basically "point sparring where one person is the attacker," then none of this applies. But the ippon kumite/one-steps/yakusoku however you spell it kumite has always been the "stand facing each other, attacker steps back, attacker steps forward and attacks" contrived pattern.

    Leave a comment:


  • mrgoshthereturn
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post

    I agree, throwing noobs in to spar with each other, or to go wild, is often unproductive. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying teach the noobs technique with real timing, real distancing, real footwork, and a smidgen of resistance, and the results will be five times that of one-steps.
    Shouldn't one step start with real distance and timing? Otherwise your not blocking a punch/kick but a held out arm?

    Your not really punching unless your going to hit someone. The defender should have enough distance and awareness to not get hurt, after all they know your going to throw a real punch to hit them in the face. but its not sparring so only the one puch is coming. If the attackers distance is correct all they need to do is move their head back 5 or 6 inches to not get hurt. That way though the trainng is not alive, at least your learning to move and defend properly, based on when your opponent attacks, not on a count of japanese numbers?

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    One steps do not teach timing and distancing. Both are contrived in the drill and therefore the student does not learn those skills from the drill.
    This statement still stands, regardless of John Slocum. One-steps might be something to do other than sparring, but they don't teach timing or distancing. They really aren't useful for much except introducing a technique, and they do that poorly.

    I agree, throwing noobs in to spar with each other, or to go wild, is often unproductive. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying teach the noobs technique with real timing, real distancing, real footwork, and a smidgen of resistance, and the results will be five times that of one-steps.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    One steps do not teach timing and distancing. Both are contrived in the drill and therefore the student does not learn those skills from the drill.

    Years ago there was a Sensei that the old timers will remember John Slocum . ask Maofas about him well if a new person entered Slocums Dojos , He would have the newb "attack him" or a high belt and then proceed to wipe the tatami up with the newb , If you came back the next day after getting your ass kicked He would then accept you. That was his weeding out process.

    Well If karate was still taught that way , we would karate killers but there would be a very small minority because the average person wouldnt last a minute.

    Most people have never had a real fight in their life and if they have now you are asking them to fight in a way foreign to them .

    But if you think allowing a new person to free spar is ok , Im sure you can do it , but it has to be with someone who is higher rank or more experienced who can at least has good control . otherwise you have two uncontrolled people just flailing .

    I used to hate sparring the white and yellow belts , because they didnt have proper focus or control and while you held back hitting them they didnt have the ability to control their techniques and you would wind up getting nicked up while trying to go easy.


    But I do agree that you have to spar as soon as possible . And Im not a lover of one steps either but I do feel they help transition a person .

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    One steps do not teach timing and distancing. Both are contrived in the drill and therefore the student does not learn those skills from the drill.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    My karate experience matters for one thing: refuting a moron who said I had no karate experience. I am not relying on my karate years to make me an authority on the validity of kata. That's because to do so would be stupid.

    I'm glad we agree on the necessity of getting to sparring, but starting with one-steps is a very poor way to "progress" to sparring. They're contrived and teach very little.

    PS. Please point me to evidence of me "hating" karate, or Isshinryu in particular. I believe you will not find any.

    Ok lets stop with all the other meaningless stuff and like IIF says stay on topic ,

    The only reason I suggested that a person start with one steps is the old theory take baby steps before you can walk , walk before you can run

    I dont mean one step till brown belt maybe up and till you master a few techniques than get into free sparring. Im a firm believer the way you learn to swim is jump into the pool but if a person jumps into a pool at 10 feet if never having having swam the person will probably drown.

    I think the one steps are just good for beginners with no little or no experience to get them used to timing and distance and give them confidence and thats it.

    nothing teaches fighting like fighting

    So actually you and I agree on alot more then we argue about , so lets a truce and stop sniping . Its ok to disagree .

    Leave a comment:


  • It is Fake
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    that you are narrow minded
    That you just think your right and everybody else is wrong ,

    Fellas stick to the topic before, the thread gets shut down like the last one please.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    To be quite honest you havent proven anything , what have proven ,

    that you are narrow minded that you spent years in a style you now hate ,

    That you just think your right and everybody else is wrong ,

    so forget it , I dont buy your bulloney:dink:

    The one thing I do agree is holding off on sparring till you are a brown belt IMHO is silly , I think after you maybe learn a few basic techniques you should be introduced to sparring.

    First with one steps then gradually to free sparring but it shouldnt take till brown belt.
    My karate experience matters for one thing: refuting a moron who said I had no karate experience. I am not relying on my karate years to make me an authority on the validity of kata. That's because to do so would be stupid.

    I'm glad we agree on the necessity of getting to sparring, but starting with one-steps is a very poor way to "progress" to sparring. They're contrived and teach very little.

    PS. Please point me to evidence of me "hating" karate, or Isshinryu in particular. I believe you will not find any.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by bitchslapper View Post
    Still waiting for proof of kata's effectiveness. More convincing than, "I believe this. My senseis believe this. Why don't you believe us? Your disbelief is pissing me off"

    well I believe them over a non entity like you :blob1:

    Leave a comment:

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