Karate Do Shotokai

[HenryT]

kata

1point2: why so angry about this? I believe in kata, 100%. I'm happy to tell you why, if you're interested (though not, I agree, on this thread). But if you don't agree, OK - I don't have a problem with that. Trollish, to acknowledge that different people have different opinions? You having a bad day or something?

[foxguitar]

Fox, I recommend that you either present evidence for your arguments vis-a-vis the usefulness of kata, or STFU. It's become trollish the way you inject yourself into every damn thread with your "hey it's all opinion man but kata rocks" bullshit.

Make your own thread where you present your arguments and thoughts, and hash it out there. Stop interfering with this site's mission of pointing people towards worthwhile schools.

And i recommend you stop trolling your own point of view as it was holy gospel. I state what I believe is my belief , You try to shove your crap on everybody as if it was written by the gods.

Well tuff shit . Im not alone in my views . better Karateka then me believe it and I believe it , You dont , fine who really cares a crap.

Dont practice in a art that does Kata , go fight till your ears bleed I could care less . Go do what ever you want to . But dont tell me what I think or what I feel works for me is bullshit. We fought wars so we could have freedom of thought.

So you need to worry about your own shit and dont worry about me or what works for me.

And who are you to decide what is useful or useless for another person. Dont you think other people can decide for themselves.

Not everybody wants to be Brock Lesnar

[1point2]

BTW: the 'sparring or no sparring' question isn't really a question, because it misunderstands the seamlessness of the relation between kihon, kata and kumite. The advanced study of bunkai is free sparring, but it takes time and patience to get there. IMHO you shouldn't be in too much a hurry to do jiyu kumite. Study kata, kata, kata - not just how to do them, but what they mean - to the limits of your imagination. A lot of people who contribute to this site will disagree with me, though.

No.

Basic bunkai needs to be sparring. If your sparring doesn't include the techniques you train for in kata and bunkai, you are wasting your time. Jiyu kumite should be held off for a while...but on the order of weeks or days, not years or months. Kata, kata, kata is a good way to improve virtually nothing except your ability to perform the kata and have a vivid imagination. Alive drilling and sparring with a progressively resistant partner is the way to improve fighting attributes (strength, speed, footwork, timing, sensitivity, body coordination) and fighting skill. Forms can be a useful supplement for posture, balance, and the occasional avenue to examine technique, but if they take a more primary role than that, they have overstepped their usefulness.

[1point2]

1point2: why so angry about this? I believe in kata, 100%. I'm happy to tell you why, if you're interested (though not, I agree, on this thread). But if you don't agree, OK - I don't have a problem with that. Trollish, to acknowledge that different people have different opinions? You having a bad day or something?

Foxguitar has shat up several threads with his monotonous, non-engagement style of non-argument regarding kata.

This site is about verifiable claims and useful, practical martial arts training. We totally accept kata practitioners and kata proponents, as long as they acknowledge its shortcomings and present evidence for their views regarding its usefulness. Fox has refused to do any of these things; at this point he is just perverting the purpose of the "TMA" forums.

[HenryT]

kata

Alive drilling and sparring with a progressively resistant partner is the way to improve fighting attributes (strength, speed, footwork, timing, sensitivity, body coordination) and fighting skill.I agree entirely; but that's what bunkai, properly understood, is, IMO. If you could come train with me, I could show you what I mean. Don't take that the wrong way: all I mean by it is that it's difficult to put what I mean into words.

[HenryT]

kata

I screwed up that last message - forgot to put 1point2's words in a quote box. Apologies.

[foxguitar]

Foxguitar has shat up several threads with his monotonous, non-engagement style of non-argument regarding kata.

This site is about verifiable claims and useful, practical martial arts training. We totally accept kata practitioners and kata proponents, as long as they acknowledge its shortcomings and present evidence for their views regarding its usefulness. Fox has refused to do any of these things; at this point he is just perverting the purpose of the "TMA" forums.

I already stated the reasons why Kata were useful , Im not going to rehash them , Go read my posts and really try to understand them rather go on a verbal kumite .
I said That Kata helps coordination , balance , endurance , focus , body shifting and other various other niceties .
I also said that you must do kumite to be a better fighter and you must train live with real opponents.

But to say Kata sucks and is useless is small minded and narrow.

I was always a fighter first I too hated Kata as newb Karate , I didnt understand it now as a more experienced practioneer I see the virtues of kata. I dont mean just doing Kata but Mastering them .

Go watch the Kata competitions of the WKF championships , especially team Kata and the required Bunkai and for one second do you think they would be scrubs in kumite .

If people on this thread take a traditional martial art like Shotokan or Goju or even kyokushin they will have to do and master Kata .

So Im sorry if you thought your former style sucked . I know Isshinryu people that are very good . But you speak your own views is if it came from mt Olympus.

[1point2]

I already stated the reasons why Kata were useful , Im not going to rehash them , Go read my posts and really try to understand them rather go on a verbal kumite .
I said That Kata helps coordination , balance , endurance , focus , body shifting and other various other niceties .

How could it possibly improve endurance? I'll allow for balance, posture, focus (guh, what an overused term) and maybe some remedial coordination...but how are the heavy bag, shadowboxing, and pad work not eminently superior for everything except balance and posture? Don't just assert, argue and explain. With examples.

Go watch the Kata competitions of the WKF championships , especially team Kata and the required Bunkai and for one second do you think they would be scrubs in kumite .

Yes, yes I do. If they haven't trained in judo, kyokushin type karate, or other hard sparring competitive randori/kumite, I doubt they have valuable sparring skills. Their success in play-fighting means nothing for their fighting skills. It's like arguing that The Governator is a good fighter because he was a bodybuilder. Yes he's strong but that's not fighting skill.

[foxguitar]

[quote=1point2;2181999]How could it possibly improve endurance? I'll allow for balance, posture, focus (guh, what an overused term) and maybe some remedial coordination...but how are the heavy bag, shadowboxing, and pad work not eminently superior for everything except balance and posture? Don't just assert, argue and explain. With examples.

Ive already stated too that yes bag work , pad work , weight training , cardio are all important . yes a live opponent is definitely needed , we agree on all that . The only difference I see , is you are of the opinion that Kata serves no useful purpose in helping you to be a better fighter . Thats the disagreement. I think if you do Kata only to go from orange belt to green belt and never really put the time in to attempt to master the Kata then yes its useless But I think once you get to Dan grading you should really put alot of time and effort into giving the Kata the effort it deserves.

And in my observation Ive seen in competitions the persons who do Kata extremely well usually place well in Kumite But the persons who strictly do Kumite dont always do well in Kata .

[HenryT]

create for yourself a large repertoire of conditioned reflexes that are utterly internalised:with an increasingly non-compliant partner.

(c) most of all, look beyond the obvious applications; use imagination and creativity to find everything that is implicit in the kata; do this with a non-compliant partner and against spontaneous and non telegraphed attacks.

This last is

[1point2]

How could it possibly improve endurance? I'll allow for balance, posture, focus (guh, what an overused term) and maybe some remedial coordination...but how are the heavy bag, shadowboxing, and pad work not eminently superior for everything except balance and posture? Don't just assert, argue and explain. With examples.

Ive already stated too that yes bag work , pad work , weight training , cardio are all important . yes a live opponent is definitely needed , we agree on all that . The only difference I see , is you are of the opinion that Kata serves no useful purpose in helping you to be a better fighter . Thats the disagreement. I think if you do Kata only to go from orange belt to green belt and never really put the time in to attempt to master the Kata then yes its useless But I think once you get to Dan grading you should really put alot of time and effort into giving the Kata the effort it deserves.

And in my observation Ive seen in competitions the persons who do Kata extremely well usually place well in Kumite But the persons who strictly do Kumite dont always do well in Kata .

Try again.

[foxguitar]

Try again.

no need to , im not here to appease you or to try and change your mind . Go do what you think you need to for you , Ill do what works for me. and to tell you the truth most good street fighters dont need much training they generally shoot or stab or perhaps club ,they dont have the patience or disclipline to train in gyms or Dojos.

So really this conversation is limited to us dedicated people who train first to protect ourselves and secondary for reasons like physical fitness , health , sport etc.

And Point I take it you no longer do Isshinryu , correct , did you hate that style that much , why did you stay till 2nd dan Just curious. or was it the particular school

[HenryT]

kata

Go do what you think you need to for you

Yes, I second this. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe: no problem - the world is wide.

[1point2]

Do you two know why this website exists?

[foxguitar]

Do you two know why this website exists?

I thought to discuss Martial arts and to have divurgent opinions , not to skip to my loo and bad mouth everybody or anything the elitist within this website dissapprove of or disagree with.

Yeah Ive been here awhile , so let me ask you why have a forum if opposing views are routinely dismissed .

Because you or your fellow elitists believe something so therefore its true.

You still didnt answer the question why you hate Isshinryu so much was it the school or the style.