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Bujinkan budo taijutsu (ninjutsu) faq

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    Bujinkan budo taijutsu (ninjutsu) faq

    BUJINKAN BUDO TAIJUTSU (NINJUTSU) FAQ

    This FAQ is an attempt to curtail all of the Bujinkan ranking system/fighting ability/ historical accuracy/ lineage claims/lack of aliveness threads that crop up now and again.

    Q. What is Ninjutsu?

    Classically Ninjutsu was the section of various different Weapons and Jujutsu Ryu-Ha that included Stealth and Covert tactics that have either been outdated or lost through the generations. Modern Ninjutsu consists of Ryu-ha descending from the Iga/Koga Region of Japan.

    Q. What organizations teach Modern Ninjutsu that descend from this region?

    A. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, Jinenkan, Tanaka Fumon, Kaminaga Shigemi. There are NO legitimate organizations teaching Koga region arts anymore.

    Q. What is the ranking system of the Bujinkan?

    A. The Bujinkan follows the kyu/dan ranking system 9th to 1st Kyu and dan ranks 1-15.

    Q. How long to reach Shodan/Godan in the Bujinkan?

    A. It depends on who you train with. However, in the United States in is not uncommon for 14 months to Shodan (1st degree black belt) and 3 years to Godan (5th degree Black Belt). While there are still some school that require a certain fighting and skill level, its not required for the organization. The only required test for rank is the Sakki Test in which the Bujinkan member will dodge a wooden sword from behind. The test is usually taken on Japan. After the test each subsequent trip to Japan usually has the member being given another Dan rank, creating numerous 15th dans. While this isn't true for everyone it happens a non-trivial percentage of the time.

    Q. What is the historical accuracy of the Bujinkan claims to Koryu legitimacy?

    A.

    Kukishin-ryu/Takagi Yoshin-ryu: Sister Samurai Arts that have been handed down together an have MANY branches of their tree.
    Gyokko-ryu/Koto-ryu: Sister Arts for the Iga Region associated with Modern Ninjutsu
    Shinden Fudo-ryu: Samurai Art that have a few legitimate branches
    Togakure-ryu: Originally intended to be billed as Kukishin-ryu Ninpo (didn't get approval from the Kuki family) it is a collection of Ninjutsu techniques Takamatsu collected and organized into a Ryu-ha so the techniques wouldn't be lost to history. While the techniques are old, the Ryu-ha itself is only 60 years old.
    Gyokushin-ryu/Kumogakure-ryu: Don't exist, Aren't taught.
    Gikan-ryu: Legitimate Line passed Akimoto Fumio then to Akimoto Koki. The Bujinkan doesn't teach it even though Hatsumi has trained in the art, but is not the recognized Grandmaster. Gikan-ryu is still taught in Japan through its legitimate lineage.

    Q. What is the training like in the Bujinkan?

    A. Bujinkan 15th Dan Dale Seago was once quoted saying "I don't let my students spar. If they did they would hold back or kill or maim each other in seconds." That is the opinion of a large section of the Bujinkan. Slow no-contact training is a common training method. This is not true for all Bujinkan school however, they are in the minority and often attacked verbally (because they are too deadly to attack physically) by the majority of members.

    Q. I heard Hatsumi's Sokeships aren't as clean cut as he claims. What is the story there?

    A. Takamatsu's successor was a man named Ueno Takashi. This happened long before Hatsumi heard of Takamatsu. As some point later Hatsumi traveled to train with Takamatsu and was sent to Ueno's dojo. Shortly after, Ueno kicked Hatsumi out of his school. Hatsumi as this point went back to pay for private lessons with Takamatsu. After Takamatsu died, Hatsumi claimed that Takamatsu removed Ueno as his successor and placed Hatsumi there, a claim never confirmed by Takamatsu and not recognized by anyone other than Hatsumi and his students. Ueno later on passed his Sokeship to Kaminaga Shimegi who teaches the arts today. Lineage wise and scroll wise Kaminaga Shimegi holds the Sokeships, Hatsumi scrolls remain unverified.

    Q: Why do people at Bullshido seem to look down on Bujinkan?

    A: Bullshido favors alive training as a method of testing martial art's. Alive being defined as attempting to spar/roll/kumite with a fully resisting opponent, both of whom are intending to defeat the other person, preferably with as few a rules as possible in order to emulate a real fight.

    Bujinkan for the majority lacks such training, although this is not always the case.

    Q: My Bujinkan dojo trains in an alive method, but people don't believe me. What can I do to be viewed as different?

    Simple solution here. Evidence.

    Post a vid of you/your class training. Expect a critique, but you'll get a little more respect if you say you can spar and pull off a muso-dori when there's a vid of it.

    Even better, turn up to a throwdown.
    Last edited by plasma; 2/21/2011 8:31am, .

    #2
    Interesting stuff, But it was not always like that.

    It was only in the mid 1990s that the Mickey Mouse Bujinkan Mc Dojo global pandemic realy started to distroy the Bujinkan. Its now about the MONEY not The Art.

    I just want to know from any other Booj old timers like myself, As you were comming up the ranks did you come across any of the bad wayS to run a club, I did.


    One of the most notorious attempts at a martial art McDojo money making club, Which provoded the most expensive training ever seen anywhere in my part of this world was in operation in the 1990s.

    The cost to each student worked out at around 4,000 Euro a head, plus the cost of any simanars attended outside of ###### which could easly run to thousands... The leader of this group was clearly in it for the money.

    After reading a few books on N.L.P. ect... The leader tryed to turn these teachings into making money and trying to set up a Messianic Cult inside an existing organization

    All the cult warning signs realy came to light from 1995 on
    • The use of N.L.P. : mind control on students, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures
    • The internal politics : Students were put in physically or emotionally distressing situations
    • A lot of "clones" in the group exhibiting a great and excessive devotion and dedication to the leader
    • Setting up of a "inner circle" - "black belt club" ( a nasty, back biting, in-fighting pack of senior students )
    • New student waiting list - the club is very exclusive and a decision must be made about whether each student is worthy before they are "allowed" to begin instruction
    • Any new students - People whom do not know any better and could be controled were the ones let in ( drones )
    • Main social life within the group
    • The leader did flatter, cajole and rebuke to manipulate members for control for money/sex
    • The leader Never allow any student to put a finger him ( appart from the "clones" )
    • The leader trained AT his students NOT with his students
    • Fast traking rank to members he could control
    • With-holding rank, The more time a student spends training the more money he can get out of them
    • Outlawing of students training with other clubs within the same org
    • Style restrictions : Members were not allowed to do any other martial arts, otherwise The leader got offended and held the student back on gradings
    • Every colour belt has to at the end of each class had get their "Time Sheets" signed by a black belt
    • The leader demand volunteer labor
    • Violence in the class : The leader did hit students, or had a senior student hit students under orders from the leader to do so
    • If what any student did for a living and he could make money out of it , he wanted a cut or free labor
    • Timing of over priced seminars to give students time to save up enough money for these saminars, powerful group pressures put on students to support said seminars
    • Workshops - saturday for colour belts - sunday for black belts- only ten places each day at 30 a head, If less then ten people turned up everyone had to pay an extra five
    • Pyramid Scheme: The setting up of other clubs run by " clones " that the leader could control
    • Witholding rank from people who wanted to set up their own club that he could not control
    • Giving Kickbacks per student that each club under him brings to his Seminairs
    • Problems in class: The student or sub group that the leader could get the most money from was in the right
    Things came to a head towards the end of 1990s when this leader tryed to get his black belts to do "visits" for him (this is true) on two irish x-members of his club and on an english instructor
    At the end of the day a club of around thirty students ended up with two members, people saw the light and walked away from that man
    As for the " clones " and " drones " they did not know any better, now did they... or should I say do they

    This leader ran a sub group hiding inside an International Martial Arts org

    So without further comments - Let the Fur Fly -
    Last edited by Bujinkan Jesus; 5/22/2010 8:06am, .

    Comment


      #3
      Bujinkan Jesus:

      Are you talking about the BBD? They were huge at the beginning of the 90's in Europe - from my experience some of what you said above applies to them and some does not, just wondering if it's their 'leader' you are referring to (what a Bullshido expose he would make!!).
      Last edited by Prince Vlad; 5/23/2010 6:27am, .

      Comment


        #4
        Quit cluttering an FAQ thread.

        Bujinkan Jesus -- There are plenty of Bujinkan threads discussing the cult-like aspects that sometimes appear in training groups. Some are not all that old. Please familiarize yourself with the search function and find one, or at least have the decency to start a new thread.

        It might be a good idea to introduce yourself in the Newbietown forum and spend some more time lurking and less time posting for a few weeks. The next time you get caught out in the wild junking up threads might not be so pleasant.

        Comment


          #5
          This FAQ is awesome. Plasma is informative, accurate, and gets right to the point, but makes so many grammatical errors that it's a horror show to read. Scroll down, and we get Styygens ominously warning a newbie that his next cluttering of a thread "might not be so pleasant". Great stuff.

          Comment


            #6
            Slaphappyslim. If you want to fix my grammatical horror show, you'll get no complaints from me. Grammar has always been my weakest subject.

            Comment


              #7
              Thanks Plasma for what you posted, now I understand where the issues as it pertains to bujinkan comes from. I will be one of the first to admit that many of the techniques, ura or omote in a live environment are hard to pull *unless the person is stun* musha dori same thing.

              Comment


                #8
                I hope that this post is in keeping with the topic. These are my personal experiences and they kind of jive with what has been covered.

                I can talk about three instructors/schools that I have studied under/been at. In 1990, in Ogden, Utah, I was studying EPAK and a friend of mine was studying Bujinkan "Ninjutsu" less than a mile away and his classes ran over an hour past mine; I would come by the instructor let me participate.

                These guys were hands on, using close to full speed punches even if they were very into the whole "ninja" thing. But there were many nights when I would go home feeling worse from "goofing off with the ninjas" than after working through two hours of Kenpo. Then I joined the Air Force and went away.

                In 2007 I started up in Colorado Springs with a "Budo Taijutsu" class. It was a 180. Some of the techniques like the Kihon Happo and the Sanchin were the same but it felt more like an into to Parkour/free running than martial arts. There was no sparring allowed, none and the weapon emphasis was on swords, shuriken and naginata(?). I was there for a short period of time but quickly advanced through the ranks.

                In 2008 I tried another BBT school because it was closer to work; it was the same but worse. After I brought up sparring and working with someone from another system (Krav Maga) I was politely told to either go over to Krav where I could "fight like a street fighter" or learn a 900 year old system that far out strips anything he (he being my instructor) has ever learned before.

                Comment


                  #9
                  14 months to Shodan? 3 years to Godan?

                  Good Lord.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Plasma View Post
                    Takamatsu's successor was a man named Ueno Takashi. This happened long before Hatsumi heard of Takamatsu. As some point later Hatsumi traveled to train with Takamatsu and was sent to Ueno's dojo. Shortly after, Ueno kicked Hatsumi out of his school. Hatsumi as this point went back to pay for private lessons with Takamatsu. After Takamatsu died, Hatsumi claimed that Takamatsu removed Ueno as his successor and placed Hatsumi there, a claim never confirmed by Takamatsu and not recognized by anyone other than Hatsumi and his students. Ueno later on passed his Sokeship to Kaminaga Shimegi who teaches the arts today. Lineage wise and scroll wise Kaminaga Shimegi holds the Sokeships, Hatsumi scrolls remain unverified.
                    I never heard this. What are the sources for Ueno was appointed successor, Ueno having the scrolls to prove it? I don't suppose this Ueno is alive today. Anyone who has more information on him?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm kind of disappointed, really. If this is supposed to be the "no BS" place, how can you state such a thing as a fact without showing what basis you have for it?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Saihoji -- Plasma, the moderator who made the claim in the Original Post, has been on hiatus.

                        Your question "I don't suppose this Ueno is alive today," strongly implies that you've never heard of Ueno Takashi. As it happens, Ueno is not alive today.

                        You can, in fact, find a wealth of information about him and his connection to the Takamatsuden simply by googling the name. As for the specific claims Plasma makes:

                        a.) He made them, and I feel he should defend them.

                        b.) This is another noodle in the "Takamatsuden Spaghetti" and one I haven't tried to follow, let alone unravel. All I'm really comfortable saying is that Ueno Takashi was a student of Takamatsu's and apparently a teacher of Hatsumi's prior to Takamatsu. Just use The Google, you'll see plenty of people discussing this elsewhere on the web. A couple of sample hits:
                        http://www.hanako.co.uk/History/Ueno.html

                        Ueno Takashi was a student of Takamatsu Toshisugu and the teacher to Hatsumi Masaaki during the mid 1950's and also maybe in the early years of the 1960's prior to Hatsumi sensei studying under Takamatsu sensei.
                        http://www.ninjutsu.com/History%20of...%20RyuNL.shtml

                        Because of this secrecy there are two people laying claim to being the Soke of this school. One is Hatsumi Masaaki, and the other, Ueno Takashi, is also an ex-student like Hatsumi of Takamatsu Toshitsugu (some people believe him to be a relative of Takamatsu). Both give different lineage. The Dai Nipon Bugei Ryu-ha book lists Ueno lineage and has no mention of the Toda-Takamatsu-Hatsumi line so somewhere in the eight missing generations someone either split a school or gave it to two people. Ueno Takashi is reputed to have been covered with tattoos, and was very friendly with the local Yakuza. It is possible that Ueno Takashi is dead, and that the new inheritor to this version of the Gyokushin Ryu is Kaminage Shigemi
                        http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/arc...p/t-20969.html

                        It should also be pointed out that Ueno Takashi was Hatsumi Sensei's teacher prior to Takamatsu Sensei, and that Ueno gave Hatsumi Sensei menkyo kaiden in Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu in 1959 (Showa 34).
                        http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...ad.php?t=22283

                        I have not heard that Sato Kinbei Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei did not get along, but I have heard that Ueno Takashi Sensei did have a problem. At one time Hatsumi Sensei was a student of Ueno Sensei. From what I understand Hatsumi Sensei went to Takamatsu Sensei behind Ueno Sensei's back and started training with Takamatsu Sensei, while he was still a student of Ueno Sensei's. I'm not sure what kind of problem that caused between Takamatsu Sensei and Ueno Sensei, but there seemed to have been a strain between Hatsumi Sensei and Ueno Sensei. A student of Kaminaga Shigemi, Kai Kuniyuki, said in an interview that Ueno Sensei expelled (the Japanese term is "hamon") Hatsumi Sensei. Whether this is true or not, I don't know.
                        c.) Plasma made his statement based on the information he uncovered while training in the Genbukan, so I'm sure you'll find it has a different point of view from the information passed along in the Bujinkan. By all means, investigate the information that is available and decide the truth for yourself.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Saihoji View Post
                          I never heard this. What are the sources for Ueno was appointed successor, Ueno having the scrolls to prove it? I don't suppose this Ueno is alive today. Anyone who has more information on him?
                          Thanks Styygens.

                          I'll just add a demo of Kaminaga Shigemi's group doing Koto-ryu from the Ueno Takashi lineage.

                          Koto ryu Koppojutsu demonstrated by Kaminaga Shigemi's group at the Ueno Takashi 20th Memorial Bujutsu Embutaikai :

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Styygens View Post
                            Your question "I don't suppose this Ueno is alive today," strongly implies that you've never heard of Ueno Takashi. As it happens, Ueno is not alive today.
                            I wrote that I hadn't heard the story before, so it should not come as a surprise I never heard about Ueno. But any teacher of Hatsumi's probably would be very, very old by now - or dead, so the conclusion is not difficult to draw.

                            I do know how to use google. I used it. And I found... forum discussions, not much else. Not much hard facts. Even the quotes you display here are mainly "I heard", "it is possible that", "whether it is true or not I do not know". This isn't proof. It isn't even evidence.

                            Originally posted by Styygens View Post
                            Plasma made his statement based on the information he uncovered while training in the Genbukan, so I'm sure you'll find it has a different point of view from the information passed along in the Bujinkan. By all means, investigate the information that is available and decide the truth for yourself.
                            I am not discussing what the people in Bujinkan say. I am not discussing what truth I should decide for myself. I am discussion
                            what the Bullshido FAQ about the topic says. Now it turns out it is based on the stories people tell in the Genbukan? A little bit of healthy scepticism regarding sources, anyone?

                            Plasma is entitled to believe whatever he wants to. So am I. But if Bullshido accepts the bias of one individual to be put in a sticky FAQ, this website is not what it says it is. Plasma has contributed a nice youtube vid, that proves exactly nothing regarding legitimacy.

                            Nothing is proven in either direction, AFAIK. So why should that section be in the FAQ anyway? Support it with good evidence, or remove it. Or agree Bullshido is just a big bunch of hypocrites as all the TMA teachers who happily tell their students everything their teacher told them, without ever questioning everything.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Plasma View Post
                              Thanks Styygens.
                              No problem. I was just holding the fort.

                              May I -- seriously, but politely -- suggest you provide a citation for the assertion that Takamatsu made Ueno his successor? I have a feeling I know what will happen next, but maybe we should let it play out.

                              If you can't provide a citation, or on second look it doesn't appear to support the assertion as strongly as you thought it did when you wrote the FAQ, perhpas we should consider rewording that section of the FAQ? When I read that section I believe your point is that Hatsumi's claim to the Takamatsuden may not be as unique as is generally described in the Bujinkan, and there is still some controversy surrounding the lineage claim.

                              Thoughts?

                              Comment

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