Ellis Amdur on the Bujinkan

[OniSan81]

Interesting.

[jessenwarrior]

I found this part interesting:



Does this mean that the ryuha (even the ninja ones like Togakure) are merely UNproven and not DISproven?

Do we know for sure that they were made up? I don't buy that Togakure is 34 generations old, but is there a chance it does predate Takamatsu?

I would guess its as you said that the ninpo ryu are only unproven not disproven.

[shmuel]

I found this part interesting:

The outsider (non-Bujinkan) understanding is that there are no makimono in existence of any of the (9??) Bujinkan ryu which establish a lineage pre-Takamatsu. In other words, there are no scrolls with pre-date him. NOT that the ryu don't exist - but that the lines claimed as going to Takamatsu are not established.

Does this mean that the ryuha (even the ninja ones like Togakure) are merely UNproven and not DISproven?

Do we know for sure that they were made up? I don't buy that Togakure is 34 generations old, but is there a chance it does predate Takamatsu?

[jessenwarrior]

It isn't a quesiton about what he knows but what and how it is taught. Ellis is pretty much dead on in that neitehr the Bujinkan nor the Genbukan teach mainly in a traditional manner as one would find in a Koryu art. Both use Judo derived Gendai ranking systems and curriculum for teaching for example. The Bujinkan especially engages in a kind of free jazz interpretation of the arts it is derived from using the kata of the Ryuha as rough guides for improvizing new methods and applications. This was not always the case as some of his early students received more formalized schooling in specific ryu though descriptions of Hatsumi's regular training sessions suggest things were often very freeform in approach.

The Genbukan has a decided difference in that once someone has roughly mastered the Gendai system of the Genbukan to the level of 3rd Dan they have the option to request traditional instructions. This is not something that the majority of practitioners within the Genbukan are involved in nor is it expected tha they will be. Even those who have chosen to study these Ryuha indepth and who hold senior rank the Gendai aspects of the Genbukan hold these studies as seperate aspects of their learning.

Perfectly said Fitz I bow in agreement.

[Troy Wideman]

It isn't a quesiton about what he knows but what and how it is taught. Ellis is pretty much dead on in that neitehr the Bujinkan nor the Genbukan teach mainly in a traditional manner as one would find in a Koryu art. Both use Judo derived Gendai ranking systems and curriculum for teaching for example. The Bujinkan especially engages in a kind of free jazz interpretation of the arts it is derived from using the kata of the Ryuha as rough guides for improvizing new methods and applications. This was not always the case as some of his early students received more formalized schooling in specific ryu though descriptions of Hatsumi's regular training sessions suggest things were often very freeform in approach.

The Genbukan has a decided difference in that once someone has roughly mastered the Gendai system of the Genbukan to the level of 3rd Dan they have the option to request traditional instructions. This is not something that the majority of practitioners within the Genbukan are involved in nor is it expected tha they will be. Even those who have chosen to study these Ryuha indepth and who hold senior rank the Gendai aspects of the Genbukan hold these studies as seperate aspects of their learning.

Hello Fitz,

I agree with you. Once you begin the study of the ryu ha, it is completely seperated from the General study on Genbukan Ninpo or the KJJR.
If you are given the chance to study the ryu ha, it is approached in a completely different manner.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

[Fitz]

It isn't a quesiton about what he knows but what and how it is taught. Ellis is pretty much dead on in that neitehr the Bujinkan nor the Genbukan teach mainly in a traditional manner as one would find in a Koryu art. Both use Judo derived Gendai ranking systems and curriculum for teaching for example. The Bujinkan especially engages in a kind of free jazz interpretation of the arts it is derived from using the kata of the Ryuha as rough guides for improvizing new methods and applications. This was not always the case as some of his early students received more formalized schooling in specific ryu though descriptions of Hatsumi's regular training sessions suggest things were often very freeform in approach.

The Genbukan has a decided difference in that once someone has roughly mastered the Gendai system of the Genbukan to the level of 3rd Dan they have the option to request traditional instructions. This is not something that the majority of practitioners within the Genbukan are involved in nor is it expected tha they will be. Even those who have chosen to study these Ryuha indepth and who hold senior rank the Gendai aspects of the Genbukan hold these studies as seperate aspects of their learning.

[jessenwarrior]

It's a given by now that Hatsumi has some legitimate licenses that were passes down to him, but this does nothing to elucidate the "34 generations" thing or the history of Togakure Ryu.

I agree, I just hate when other koryu teachers like Ellis critize other Japanese teachers in Japan over 9 ryuha when they know 2 ryu are koryu but they dont say that. Now the other 7 who knows.

[rw4th]

It's a given by now that Hatsumi has some legitimate licenses that were passes down to him, but this does nothing to elucidate the "34 generations" thing or the history of Togakure Ryu.

[jessenwarrior]

But to be fair, the way the Bujinkan teaches Takagi and Kuki are not at all how Koryu teaches any Ryu ha.

This may be correct but Ellis should not have added the Genbukan to his opinion. The Genbukan does train in the ryuha so he should give Tanemura Soke as much respect as every one gives him.

[shinbushi]

But to be fair, the way the Bujinkan teaches Takagi and Kuki are not at all how Koryu teaches any Ryu ha.

[jessenwarrior]

From http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/sh...6&postcount=23

Well with all respect to Ellis Amdur I think he's only giving about 75% of truth about what he's saying maybe because of his own dislike of the Booji or hatsumi, just my opinion and I say this because in the first passage he says (what I do is not what you do) and used Meik and Dian as cosigners. Minus 7 of Hatsumi ryu,2 are verifiable koryu and its obvious Ellis Amdur doesnt train in the 2 ryuha Hatsumi has that are koryu. In the next passage he said the Booji then added the Genbukan and subsidiary and practices are not carried out in a manner congruent of a koryu. I can agree with that when dealing with the organization but reaching certain rank in Genbukan one can ask to study a koryu ryuha and if granted permission one is train in the ryuha in a traditional manner, and Ellis knows this and he did not distinguish it in the Genbukan, so in my opinion the genbukan is taught in a Japanese Traditional sense in the org. and in the ryuha one trains in the old Traditional way. One problem he has like so many people they toss the Genbukan in with the Booji and there entirely different Orgs. that teach entirely different,hving only 9 ryuha in common, but the Genbukan soke knows more than another 12 ryuha he teach from and he still has a teacher he learns from so the kans are very different. Again I think Ellis a fantastic koryu teacher but just because you dont like the Booji dont throw other orgs in with them.

[edtang]

Thanks for posting this up. Ellis Amdur is awesome.

[Fitz]

From BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

Just opened this thread, and I wanted to correct a few small misconceptions.

Dale, I recall your student - a really fine guy. He did not ask me about "koryu.com." I see a tendency in this thread, and I certainly seen it far more pronounced in others to write about Diane and Meik Skoss' website as if it is a collective organization. It's not an organization at all. It's their business website, and they post a few articles on it - some really good, some less so. I won't speak for Meik and Diane, but my own (mostly) disinterest in the Bujinkan is perhaps the same as theirs - that what you do is not what I do. (And as I will try to establish, I think the feeling from Hatsumi is mutual).

What your student asked me was what was the viewpoint of orthodox koryu practitioners re Bujinkan, and why was it held.

Let's preface what follows by saying I'm not going to write anything here about effectiveness, skill or strength. I don't think much is accomplished by fanticizing how strong you are or are not, or how good your sword waza are, compared to x-ryu, sitting at a keyboard.

What I said was that the Bujinkan (and Genbukan, for that matter) and it's subsidiary practices are not carried out in a manner congruent with that of any other koryu system in Japan. It's method of teaching, ranking, etc. is different. This is not merely a matter of innovation - I have an essay in the third of the Skoss' books regarding innovation, and describe my own role in some significant innovation in two ryu I'm involved in.

"It's not koryu" in Japanese has two interpretations - the first is rigid and the second is an adjective. For example, Jikishin Kage-ryu naginatajutsu was not admitted to the Kobudo Shinkokai for many years (the criteria have loosened over the last couple of decades) because it was not founded before the Meiji period cut-off. That's an example of the rigid criteria.

I have presented kata of old ryu that I have had a hand in reviving or recreating, according to the technical parameters of the school in question. No outsider has ever realized that these are not old school kata, because they look and move exactly the same. But were I to present a new kenpo section to my Araki-ryu, using parameters from the hsing-i I"m practicing a lot now, and the muay thai I used to do, even though, as a licensed instructor I'd have the authority to do so, every traditional Japanese looking at it would say, "That's not koryu." The adjective criteria.

Now, as for Hatsumi and the Bujinkan - the formal criteria. I will assert with some confidence that the Kobudo Shinkokai does not demand that one give one's own makimono to them. My teachers, members, had their own makimono in their own house. But if the lineage of their school were questioned, they would request to see the makimono. The outsider (non-Bujinkan) understanding is that there are no makimono in existence of any of the (9??) Bujinkan ryu which establish a lineage pre-Takamatsu. In other words, there are no scrolls with pre-date him. NOT that the ryu don't exist - but that the lines claimed as going to Takamatsu are not established. Hatsumi may have such scrolls - but they have not been viewed by outsiders who are the "arbitrers" regarding joining the "club."

As for the "adjectival criteria," I've visited Hatsumi, trained with Terry Dobson, observed Bujinkan and Genbukan training, including formal kata, done some sparring with weapons and empty-handed as well, and speaking personally here as a "traditionalist," it just doesn't look like or feel like koryu - timing, ma-ai, weapon usage, etc. is just different - sometimes subtly, sometimes grossly. To reiterate, I'm not talking about strength! Some of the most legitimate koryu are sterile societies of a few hobbiests who preserve a rote version of kata and couldn't fight their way out of a junior high school schoolyard fight.

The best way to explain the difference is this. There are classsical music societies that only use period instruments. You get to hear Mozart and Bach the way their own audiences probably did. Then there are classical musicians in modern orchestras, with far more instruments, a piano with a vastly different sound. Still "koryu," but somewhat innovated. Then there are ensembles which use electric violins, add some jazz figure, some coda's with modern dissonences. They would say that the old music is stultified and that they, the innovators have returned to the spirit of the founders (the Sengoku jidai of music, so to speak). The traditionalists would say, "That aint classical." To me, that's the position that Hatsumi is in (he reportedly blends the techniques of the different ryu, for one example), and he obviously can care less about the classisists, or he'd invite them over to his house, show them the makimono going back seven generations, etc., and join their club. But he doesn't - he either doesn't have such records, or he does, but he has nothing to prove to people he feels are stuck in rigid sterile training. This is a man who has stated, per other posters, that he does and knows Katori Shinto-ryu far better than practitioners of the actual ryu (I can't cite this thread's location, but I recall it). I would infer that, to him, an assertion that "We, the Bujinkan, are koryu" means a DROP in status, not a rise. (And this was certainly my impression of him in my meeting with him in 1977 and in a subsequent phone call in 1980 where he refused to let me see a makimono of Araki-ryu that he definitely had, saying, "I don't show my material.")

In sum, (sorry for the length), why would you guys want to join a club that he clearly feels is beneath him and you?

with respect

Ellis Amdur