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    #61
    Originally posted by It is Fake
    Argggh guys, please fix your quotes. Make sure to preview your posts before you submit them.
    Sorry IIF basically one way that graduate school makes a person neurotic as hell, or at least one way it has made me neurotic as hell is to always give a reference for your point of entry into a debate. Usually that is the post one is responding to. I know this makes for some slogging through a bit of material though

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      #62
      Originally posted by Dsimon3387
      Sorry IIF basically one way that graduate school makes a person neurotic as hell, or at least one way it has made me neurotic as hell is to always give a reference for your point of entry into a debate. Usually that is the post one is responding to. I know this makes for some slogging through a bit of material though
      I know you didn't just explain quoting to me? That is pretty damn funny. I'm known for multiple quoting.


      No you guys are screwing up the quote tags. So, your username is now at the top of gladius' post.

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        #63
        Originally posted by It is Fake
        I know you didn't just explain quoting to me? That is pretty damn funny. I'm known for multiple quoting.


        No you guys are screwing up the quote tags. So, your username is now at the top of gladius' post.
        Ohh. Got it

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          #64
          Originally posted by gladius
          Hahaha! It was you after all? You are the guy that have posted the video sparring with another guy? Hahaha, you are the one that just did crappy mma trying to convince us that all was taijutsu?
          Nice try with the photo,now tell us how he got there and how you will apply the choke when the opponent truly resists you and just DOES NOT LEAVE HIS HANDS ON HIS SIDE LIKE JESUS ON THE CROSS!!!!!
          Ah no I have not posted this before. And I did have students sparring a long time ago on here. I believe before you joined. I have never posted me sparring. I mainly spar in my Muay Thai or roll in my BJJ class(Roger Machado in Redondo Beach).

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            #65
            [QUOTE=gladius]
            Originally posted by Dsimon3387

            1)
            3) V arm lock/ chicken wing is not the same as Onikudaki. In onikudaki the hand which is next to the opponent's head goes below/behind his arm while in chicken wing the arm which is far from the head goes below the arm.
            Actually the key lock (Americana) is the same as URA Onikudaki on the ground. Also Bujinkan does have a behind the back chicken wing called ura ude Gamrami.

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              #66
              Originally posted by shinbushi
              Ah no I have not posted this before. And I did have students sparring a long time ago on here. I believe before you joined. I have never posted me sparring. I mainly spar in my Muay Thai or roll in my BJJ class(Roger Machado in Redondo Beach).
              Still, I have to wonder what your "Bujinkan Alive" classes actually look like. Is it actual sparring, or scenario training? Does it boil down to students using the MT/BJJ training you have integrated or is there any visibly recognizable taijutsu being used?

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                #67
                Originally posted by rw4th
                Still, I have to wonder what your "Bujinkan Alive" classes actually look like. Is it actual sparring, or scenario training? Does it boil down to students using the MT/BJJ training you have integrated or is there any visibly recognizable taijutsu being used?
                For the Striking a Muay Thai / SBG crazy monkey delivery system with the more practical Bujinkan fists (Shuto (omote/ura), shinkan-ken, kakushi geri, sokuyaku-ken sokugyaku-ken). Then with Bujinkan Throws. Then they get to spar striking and throws.
                I usually teach something from the basic kata like icjimonji no kata, but the uke tsuki is an upward parry like in MT or SBG and then a shuto using "cross mechanics".
                Last edited by shinbushi; 8/12/2008 2:16pm, .

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                  #68
                  Originally posted by shinbushi
                  For the Striking a Muay Thai / SBG crazy monkey delivery system with the more practical Bujinkan fists (Shuto (omote/ura), shinkan-ken, kakushi geri, sokuyaku-ken sokugyaku-ken). Then with Bujinkan Throws. Then they get to spar striking and throws.
                  I usually teach something from the basic kata like icjimonji no kata, but the uke tsuki is an upward parry like in MT or SBG and then a shuto using "cross mechanics".
                  If people can visualize the angle of the Tsuki you speak of DAvid they would understand that it is a very fast delivery when done in that manner.

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                    #69
                    Originally posted by rw4th
                    Still, I have to wonder what your "Bujinkan Alive" classes actually look like. Is it actual sparring, or scenario training? Does it boil down to students using the MT/BJJ training you have integrated or is there any visibly recognizable taijutsu being used?
                    Ill tell ya this much... Ju Munji does not look like other stuff ( can't be mistaken for boxing for example) and Ju Munji, with the short Nagashi movements and with the very fast weight shifts, metsubishi, crisp punches/boshikan/shuto and easy/fluid concept of distancing is great for combat training. One of my favorite drills to teach people to be aggressive is to have them fight (what you might call spar) and have one guy maintain his ground using Ju Munji while the other guy attacks with evrything. They also fight freestyle this way... I hesitate to call it sparring cause I don't let them dance around, bounce up and down, or throw anything with less than an amount of force that will cause major impact. Ju Munji no kata quickly teaches one in a fight how to change the distance fluidly between striking and grappling. Some amazing techniques come out of that fighting drill. I mention Ju Munji because it lends itself to being aggressive. People always associate the Booj with Ichi No Kamia! And, as David has pointed out, you can fight from ichi no Kami! But Ju Munji looks a lot more like what it is in terms of fighting..

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                      #70
                      So, exbujin, do you see more of a problem with the material being taught or the instructors? Since I don't have the amount of time invested as you do, I'd like to know what you would suggest to supplement or replace BBT.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by Dsimon3387


                        How much experience do you have as a martial artist? I ask this because while you have mastered the litany of the skeptic, which is not a bad thing, you are misaplying the principles. Lets look at this post carefully and constructively, i.e. I am not trying to tear you down:

                        1) Combat training in general works so that larger movements are eventually economized. All arts do this. There is nothing hidden about this. You need to develop the leverage over time. Perfect example is a guilitine type choke. When done properly this can be applied with the same amount of pressure as holding an infant.... This is not secret, you have to develop the leverage and economize the movements involved. The same applies to punches, kicks weapons use, etc.

                        2) Ok Musha Dori. At the highest conceptual level it is a study in how to attack the flank of the individual properly.... At the lowest gross physical movement it is a shoulder lock. In between those two extremes there are virtually an infinite amount of ways to apply Musha Dori physically and strategically. Now you may say "what? attack the flank? How so?"

                        Ok mr practicality! if I want to grapple with you or control a side of your body when attacking you there are ways to achieve that and one of them is to contrpl you through communtive locking by having your elbow bent and shoulder movement mnimized. When done right this makes it impossible for you to attack, or harm me with your other arm.

                        Also, if you are holding a weapon in that hand then we get into controlling your arm (Kota gashi) which in the Bujinkan if done in an outwards direction can be Omote, as a wrist lock, but when focused on the arm flank, is an fact a variation of Mushi Dori. With a weapon youcna actually use the Musha Dori position such that if he wants to stab you, etc there are things you can do to him of you understand Musha Dori that you could not do.... and I am talking about a live resisting opponent intent on cutting you.

                        As you practice the movements needed to control the other guys shoulder are achieved more efficiently, in live training this manifests because youcan now get to his flank and turn his arm into the position much faster (less movement) and when practiced right you are at his flank so he can't pull you down to grapple you. See? people think the Buj guys don't practive realistically? well the stuff in this example is very realistic and it is IN THE ART. Whether people choose to do it or not is their choice, but it is there if you look.

                        Your comments about OnI kudaki could be deconstructed along similar lines. There are many variations and when usint Oni kUdaki on the ground if you keep the arm below the shoulder of the guy he can't twist out and even if he does you can break his arm and make sure he is on his belly... meaning he can't grapple you.

                        I gave you these examples to show that the hinka (applications) are there. If tomorrow people decided to practice BJJ as a non contact form, it would not be Helio's fault that they could not fight. I maintain that if you study the waza properly in the Buj and approach them as a fighter you will see how they work in a fght.

                        If you are ever out in San francisco you and anyone else on the board is more than welcome to come by my Sunday class. And this is a friendly invitation, I mean to clear up misconceptions, both my own and those of others, through correct practice.




                        Hello Dsimon, ( De-simon ,sounds like Digimon ;-) )

                        Some points on your comments:

                        1)Experience: 12 years. Kickboxing, Tkd+ WC, Ninpo, BJJ in that order.






                        4) Why most TM artists that want to defend their art cant just give a straight answer?





                        5) "Conceptual level": What the fuck is this?!!! A technique either works or not! No need for complicated terms that offer nothing in enhancing performance.

                        Does mushadori work? Yes/No
                        Is mushadori a high % technique: Yes/No
                        Is that simple.











                        7) Now, I get what you are trying to say and to tell you the truth it is just plain wrong.

                        - Techniques and principles are two completely different things.
                        Principles need techniques to be manifested and techniques need to contain principles in order to work.

                        -But a technique cannot become a principle/guide it self. If it does not work against resistance when all its principles are sound that means that the technique is either useless or very low %.

                        -Example because this gets complicated for the rest:

                        In bjj a classic guard arm bar is a technique.

                        -If those are present the arm bar will work in a high % (if the opponent does not use a specific defense).

                        -I believe few bjj fighters would describe the techniques that they learn in the gym as anything more or less than a specific movement to cause damage (again I use bjj as an example because this is what I know best. You can change the above example with lunge taijutsu punch-boxing punch)

                        -Now, you will use the principles of the arm bar (tightness, dominance, space) in another techniques (triangle, kimura) but not the technique it self as a "guide". The technique either works or not.







                        A guide for what? Another technique?





                        9) And what you mean by saying a "guide"? A strategic kind, an anatomical , what?

                        -A guide to understand that an arm breaks when we hold still one part of it and overextend/rotate the rest of it {that is actually what you did in your 2), you described anatomically how musha causes pain but not how it is set up} ?



                        -That is not a guide, that is physics and anatomy and if one needs a technique to understand that, he is are a retard and he is dangerous to train with.







                        -In the end which are the specific techniques that are used exactly as they are practiced in taijutsu?

                        -If tomorrow people decided to practice BJJ as a non...". Still they would be a vast amount of knowledge of how to apply what we learn if someone wanted to spar. But ninpo has nothing of it. Just thousand techniques and a not a single clear method of how to set them up or apply them against full resistance.



                        12) Thanks for the invitation...you sound like a very civilized and humble ninjer :-).
                        Last edited by gladius; 8/13/2008 2:46am, .

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                          #72
                          Originally posted by shinbushi
                          Ah no I have not posted this before. And I did have students sparring a long time ago on here. I believe before you joined. I have never posted me sparring. I mainly spar in my Muay Thai or roll in my BJJ class(Roger Machado in Redondo Beach).
                          Ohhhhh.....it was not you then...right.... I think it was a genbukan guy....who was it I wonder...Maybe it was Plasma...anyway....

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                            #73
                            Originally posted by shinbushi
                            Actually the key lock (Americana) is the same as URA Onikudaki on the ground. Also Bujinkan does have a behind the back chicken wing called ura ude Gamrami.

                            And yes, to this you are right to, the omote onikudaki is what I described before. Ura is exactly like chicken wing/v-arm lock, I know that.

                            The omote , (which is in the kihon and one of the most demostrated-practiced technique in the bujinkan), is the one that does not work either on the ground or in stand up.

                            The ura onikudaki works on the ground, but (like the omote) it is very difficult to pull on a resisting opponent while grappling in stand up.

                            Almost impossible to do it on a a punching arm even if you "pain-freeze" his arm with a inside bicep block first .
                            Even if you catch the arm and wrap your hands around his, the opponent can either rotate to your back or use his free arm to pull down his trapped arm against your motion.

                            Thoughts?

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                              #74
                              In response to Gladius:

                              Your ideas about a sucky martial art are your ideas, they are not what I said about the Kihon. You digress when you say "so what? the movements get smaller," well thats a big so what! Thats real important to understand how to train the technique spontaneously.

                              You want to say that the techniques in a so called sucky art follow a pattern of being based exclusively on principle and not on application... Is this your idea spefcifically? What I love about this thinkiing is that every time someoene in the Buj does a glotal choke, or a compression technique that comes from understanding principles, guys like you turn around and say "hey that doesn't come from the Buj because it is something that a Brazilian Ju jjitsu guy uses!".... Then when you are told it comes from an understanding in a different context, well damned under both sets of circumstances, the buj guy could not know how to do a compression choke! Yet David shows you a picture of a choke one would see in any grappling art, including the Buj.

                              The truth is your opinion about principle is flawed beyond belief. Basically if somoene attempts an arm bar without shortening the movements on somoene who is trained, they would have the same percentage of failure that someone doing Mushadori as a kihon would. There is virtually no difference in that regard. The regard specifically is for how the technique would apply against trained opposition that is resisting. Partof your flaw is you equate an understanding of principle with a lack of application.... Your screen name comes from a culture that appreciated Greek ideas of how theory relates to praxis... and it is a valid method of learning...including learning the techniques of a martial art.

                              Learning theory properly and understanding how to apply technique under different circumstances will never be an excuse for not doing a technique correctly. A conceptual understanding of Musha Dori will teach somoene how to apply it agianst a jab for example, in the same way that a conceptual understanding or the weight dynamics in an applied arm bar could help somoene levrage the technique against some types of blade attacks.


                              You might realize something important that should be obvious.... Judo was a nice complete martial art and yet because of many factors its application was a little left handed to the Brazilian ways of confrontation. So some guys took judo and conceptually made an art based on how a Brazilian thinks about combat. And conceptually developed the ground aspect of the art to account for differences in size, stature and other variables. Without this conceptual change there would not be any Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Understanding the concepts for how things apply does not equal incompitance and it never will.

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                                #75
                                Originally posted by shinbushi
                                For the Striking a Muay Thai / SBG crazy monkey delivery system with the more practical Bujinkan fists (Shuto (omote/ura), shinkan-ken, kakushi geri, sokuyaku-ken sokugyaku-ken). Then with Bujinkan Throws. Then they get to spar striking and throws.
                                I usually teach something from the basic kata like icjimonji no kata, but the uke tsuki is an upward parry like in MT or SBG and then a shuto using "cross mechanics".

                                I have the same doubts expressed by [COLOR=#0368ff]rw4th[/COLO"]No BS Martial Arts - View Profile: [email protected]@[email protected]@View Profile: rw4th</title>@@[email protected]@rw4th. How your class looks? How your students or you look when you spar? what % of each style you use when you spar?

                                Could you do without ninpo and still fight the same? Could you just left with bjj and ninpo and still fight effeciently in all ranges (you or any of your students, is not a personal question)?

                                You gave some answers but I really wonder how all these are applied in reality and how all these are mixed together.

                                can you post a training and sparring video? I am really curious to see this and I am not saying it in a challenging way.
                                Of course , you have your specific training schedule and filming might disrupt it, so I

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