Do you guys seriously doubt Robert Bussey's abillity?

[Jim_Jude]

That's probably true....

You PROBABLY have a 15" man-root??? Wow...

[Bigbp_k]

This is rediculous. Granted I went a bit over board with the fisting comment, but whatever happened to having a legitimate intelligent conversation? This is like an argument over recess or something. Furthermore, if any of you guys are in the Memphis area, I would love for some of this bullshit to be spoken in person.

[Bigbp_k]

So you seem to have a lot of experience with homo-erotic fisting. Do you have a man crush on Bussey like shadow_priest_x does?

Replying to that is pointless. The fact is, you could fill in the blanks with just about anything you don't approve of (such as women) and the result would be the same. You aren't posing any sort of legitimate response to what I said, but rather being childish and say "uhhh uh!". In conclusion, I have to go on and say... fuck you.

[maofas]

Think about it. He wasn't out there teaching horse stances and reverse punches. He was evolving his art into something more and more effective. I don't see how anyone could have a problem with it. It's legit.

Evolution maybe, but it's entirely possible the reason he didn't teach reverse punches is because he came from a ninjitsu background and couldn't punch for shit.

[shadow_priest_x]

Evolution maybe, but it's entirely possible the reason he didn't teach reverse punches is because he came from a ninjitsu background and couldn't punch for shit.

Well by this time what he was teaching didn't even remotely resemble togakure-ryu either. He was on a war path to strip away non-essential shit and figure out what worked and what didn't. As I said before, at a time when most people were still doing a single art and a single style of fighting, he was already incorporating both striking and groundwork, in addition to practical weapons like the staff, into his curriculum.

[Jim_Jude]

This is rediculous. Granted I went a bit over board with the fisting comment, but whatever happened to having a legitimate intelligent conversation? This is like an argument over recess or something. Furthermore, if any of you guys are in the Memphis area, I would love for some of this bullshit to be spoken in person.

Shut up, n00b.

[Jim_Jude]

Well by this time what he was teaching didn't even remotely resemble togakure-ryu either. He was on a war path to strip away non-essential shit and figure out what worked and what didn't. As I said before, at a time when most people were still doing a single art and a single style of fighting, he was already incorporating both striking and groundwork, in addition to practical weapons like the staff, into his curriculum.

Robert Bussey never received a teaching rank in the Bujinkan, and he refused to challenge the Godan test, supposedly because it was "against his Christian faith", whatever that means.
Did you know that he would not have been welcome back to train in Japan, even if he wanted to? After he came back to the U.S. he began making statements that "the Japanese have no power" and that "Hatsumi wasn't the real deal". Hatsumi-sensei made it known that if he returned that he should be beaten to within an inch of his life and sent on his way (this is from a long-time senior Japanese shihan). Back then Sensei was still very protective of his art and its reputation...

Bussey was just starting to get into the Bujinkan, & was most certainly NOT an authority on any of the styles it contains.

[shadow_priest_x]

Robert Bussey never received a teaching rank in the Bujinkan, and he refused to challenge the Godan test, supposedly because it was "against his Christian faith", whatever that means.
Did you know that he would not have been welcome back to train in Japan, even if he wanted to? After he came back to the U.S. he began making statements that "the Japanese have no power" and that "Hatsumi wasn't the real deal". Hatsumi-sensei made it known that if he returned that he should be beaten to within an inch of his life and sent on his way (this is from a long-time senior Japanese shihan). Back then Sensei was still very protective of his art and its reputation...

Bussey was just starting to get into the Bujinkan, & was most certainly NOT an authority on any of the styles it contains.

Did you listen to my interview clip earlier in the thread? Bussey was in Japan for two years and trained INCESSANTLY. He was very serious and was actually on track at one point to become a Buddhist priest. Apparently somewhere along the line he decided to take a new spiritual direction, but that doesn't have anything to do with what he had accomplished up to that point. I don't know what you mean by "he was just starting to get into the Bujinkan." 5 days a week for 2 years is not "just starting" to get into anything.

It sounds to me like you really don't know much about Bussey.

[Matt Stone]

Bussey was in Japan for two years and trained INCESSANTLY.

My dad was in charge of SWAT training in Omaha when Bussey was big in town. They were considering bringing him in to teach the SWAT team some things, so they did a background check on him. From what I remember, my father told me that the best they could establish was that Bussey was in Japan for two weeks, not two years...

Anecdotal at best, but still....

He was very serious and was actually on track at one point to become a Buddhist priest. Apparently somewhere along the line he decided to take a new spiritual direction, but that doesn't have anything to do with what he had accomplished up to that point.

That's a pretty radical departure, especially seeing how Bussey's dojo in Omaha was devoid of Buddhist decoration, and had a cross prominently displayed in the main training area.

I don't know what you mean by "he was just starting to get into the Bujinkan." 5 days a week for 2 years is not "just starting" to get into anything.

From what I've heard from some Bujinkan people, the only reason they know of Bussey is that he fell away from them. He doesn't seem to have made any inroads to the higher levels, inner circles, etc., and it's only his departure from them that brought him to their awareness. This contadicts your version of his deep penetration into the heart of Buj training.

It sounds to me like you really don't know much about Bussey.

It's one thing to know of someone from what they tell you themselves. It's another thing entirely to know of a person from what their detractors and critics have to say.

If your knowledge of his history, training, etc., all come from the man himself (or those who were closest to him and supported him the most), then you only have half the story at best.

Objectivism - not just for reporters anymore.

[shadow_priest_x]

That's a pretty radical departure, especially seeing how Bussey's dojo in Omaha was devoid of Buddhist decoration, and had a cross prominently displayed in the main training area.

From what I understand, by the time he was established in Nebraska and has his own thing going he had long since already converted to Christianity. He himself has claimed that it's the Buddhist and Shinto influences that eventually lead him away from the Bujinkan. I also understand that he was raised Christian--perhaps nominally--and later got into Buddhism. At some point during that journey he was reintroduced to Christianity and, at least in his head, a light turned on.

From what I've heard from some Bujinkan people, the only reason they know of Bussey is that he fell away from them. He doesn't seem to have made any inroads to the higher levels, inner circles, etc., and it's only his departure from them that brought him to their awareness. This contadicts your version of his deep penetration into the heart of Buj training.

Most of what I know comes from Brandon Alvarez, the director of the documentary that I mentioned. He put a lot of effort into doing his research for the film and has himself studied with the Jinenkan, Genbukan and Bujinkan. He is currently a Bujinkan student. He performed research not only stateside but also during 4 seperate trips to Japan and did interviews with most of the top names from the 80s, including Hayes, Malmstrom, and (I think) Hoban, and he was also able to do a short interview with Hatsumi himself. The information he gathered about Hayes' and Bussey's training practices and habits was gained mostly through talking to others who trained with them in Japan at that time.

[Soju_King]

i asked my senior instructors......who regularly travel to Japan for training updates about Bussey the other day an what they say lines up with what Jim Jude says.

an that he's a little.....odd

[Matt Stone]

an that he's a little.....odd

He growls. 'Nuff said.

But seriously, who's that chick in your avatar? Nicely done...

[Sam Browning]

From what I understand, by the time he was established in Nebraska and has his own thing going he had long since already converted to Christianity. He himself has claimed that it's the Buddhist and Shinto influences that eventually lead him away from the Bujinkan. I also understand that he was raised Christian--perhaps nominally--and later got into Buddhism. At some point during that journey he was reintroduced to Christianity and, at least in his head, a light turned on.




Most of what I know comes from Brandon Alvarez, the director of the documentary that I mentioned. He put a lot of effort into doing his research for the film and has himself studied with the Jinenkan, Genbukan and Bujinkan. He is currently a Bujinkan student. He performed research not only stateside but also during 4 seperate trips to Japan and did interviews with most of the top names from the 80s, including Hayes, Malmstrom, and (I think) Hoban, and he was also able to do a short interview with Hatsumi himself. The information he gathered about Hayes' and Bussey's training practices and habits was gained mostly through talking to others who trained with them in Japan at that time.

Okay, how much training time did Hayes, Malmstrom and Hoban have in Japan by way of comparison?

[shadow_priest_x]

Okay, how much training time did Hayes, Malmstrom and Hoban have in Japan by way of comparison?

Again, do go through the trouble of listening to the clip I linked to earlier in the thread. It would answer your question for the most part.

But I'll go ahead and do it anyway. If you DO listen to the interview, Brandon explains that Hayes was there 5 years but that he was actually not very diligent with his training. Apparently it was common for him to only train like a day a week, whereas Bussey trained nearly everyday. Not only that but after seeing them both in action up close and personal Brandon says he has no doubt that Bussey would crush Hayes with ease in a real fight.

(Sorry, not sure about Hoban or Malmstrom because they only came up in passing in our conversation. Growing up, I was mostly familiar with Hayes and Bussey and so those are the guys I asked the most questions about.)

[Sam Browning]

I'm on dial up, so I normally don't download the clips because it takes forever. I wonder what Hayes was doing in Japan if he wasn't training.