Do you guys seriously doubt Robert Bussey's abillity?

[G-Off]

The best way, and for many the only way, to prove Mr. Bussy's abilities is to provide video evidence of him fighting.

Aye. I'll even take (as I said), video of medium-force sparring with minimally restrictive rules and/or protective gear.

[shadow_priest_x]

No listen, that's not my point. I don't care if things look silly. If they look silly and work, then cool! Genki Sudo has done some of the silliest things I have ever seen in a fight and he was a fucking amazing fighter (come back, please). A jab cross combo may be effective historically (and contemporarily), sure. But can Bussey do it effectively against someone trying to hit him back? That's the real question, because the argument here is Robert Bussey's abilities, not his techniques.

Again, I can't produce any sort of video evidence. I don't know the man he wasn't a competition fighter in the past. From what I HAVE seen, I don't think Bussey is someone you would want to fuck with. But even if not (hypothetically, of course), I assume we can both agree that it's certainly possible that someone could teach good techniques while not having competitive ability himself.

This is an argument better suited to more informed people (and a different thread that's already happened), but suffice it to say that witness testimony can be wildly unreliable, and public demonstrations are almost always compliant. The broad point to be drawn is that physical evidence trumps all other forms of evidence. Bruce discussion really should go elsewhere though.

Also, Bill Wallace is a douche who couldn't hang with a Muay Thai fighter of his day in his prime, which is why he stayed away from them. I don't have evidence of Wallace specifically, but I do have the next best thing. Namely, a champion fighter from the ruleset Wallace fought under (American kickboxing) fighting a Muay Thai fighter. Not sure from when. In any case, here's the fight (it's a long one): http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...77132680635888. You may know that the kickboxing champ Rick Roufus switched to Muay Thai-like rules in years after this fight. Be sure to watch at least into the 3rd round.

I really meant to say Joe Lewis and not Bill Wallace, but somehow Wallace came out. Wallace may be a douche. I've heard he is, actually. He WAS respected in his day, though. There are guys now who are great in grappling tournaments but might not excell in MMA (and vice versa). Keep that in mind.

Nevertheless, I will check your link out tomorrow. Gotta get to bed tonight but I will give it a look . . . at least into the 3rd round. I'll do it tomorrow . . . scout's honor. For now, though, I'm out. And thanks for being civil when so many others aren't.

[Kentucky Fried Chokin]

Again, I can't produce any sort of video evidence. I don't know the man he wasn't a competition fighter in the past. From what I HAVE seen, I don't think Bussey is someone you would want to fuck with. But even if not (hypothetically, of course), I assume we can both agree that it's certainly possible that someone could teach good techniques while not having competitive ability himself.

Can you provide any video or fight record for any of the people he has trained? What makes you think he was such a badass fighter (remember we've never heard of him, so we can't just go off of name recognition)?

I really meant to say Joe Lewis and not Bill Wallace, but somehow Wallace came out. Wallace may be a douche. I've heard he is, actually. He WAS respected in his day, though. There are guys now who are great in grappling tournaments but might not excell in MMA (and vice versa). Keep that in mind.

Nevertheless, I will check your link out tomorrow. Gotta get to bed tonight but I will give it a look . . . at least into the 3rd round. I'll do it tomorrow . . . scout's honor. For now, though, I'm out. And thanks for being civil when so many others aren't.

No one says it has to be a NHB ruleset (although that is the best barameter), but it needs to be something more competetive than pointsparring, like kickboxing or MT rules.

[G-Off]

Again, I can't produce any sort of video evidence. I don't know the man he wasn't a competition fighter in the past. From what I HAVE seen, I don't think Bussey is someone you would want to fuck with. But even if not (hypothetically, of course), I assume we can both agree that it's certainly possible that someone could teach good techniques while not having competitive ability himself.

Sure, it's possible to be a good coach and a terrible fighter (or vice-versa), but the discussion was on Bussey being a good fighter. Since there is no video evidence that you can provide, no offense meant but I have to remain a skeptic.

I really meant to say Joe Lewis and not Bill Wallace, but somehow Wallace came out. Wallace may be a douche. I've heard he is, actually. He WAS respected in his day, though. There are guys now who are great in grappling tournaments but might not excell in MMA (and vice versa). Keep that in mind.

Nevertheless, I will check your link out tomorrow. Gotta get to bed tonight but I will give it a look . . . at least into the 3rd round. I'll do it tomorrow . . . scout's honor. For now, though, I'm out. And thanks for being civil when so many others aren't.

That makes sense, Lewis instead of Wallace. True that some people good in grappling aren't in MMA (the awesome Marcelo Garcia has an 0-1 record in MMA), but they're good in the most expansive ruleset for their focus. So, Wallace focused on striking but a very limited ruleset of striking, and thus doesn't really count as even a very good striker in my book. That's why I'd be satisfied with just standup fight evidence for Bussey/anyone else. You don't have to be good at everything, but you need to be very good at what you focus on in order to qualify as a good fighter IMO.

[Kentucky Fried Chokin]

Hey, to be fair to Marcelo (I love the man) he lost due to doctor stoppage. I think he would have eventually won that fight.

[G-Off]

Hey, to be fair to Marcelo (I love the man) he lost due to doctor stoppage. I think he would have eventually won that fight.

True, it was due to a cut. It provides a good example though, since a lot of good grapplers now are becoming pretty good strikers too. I was particularly impressed by Jacare's MT (what little we saw of it) in his most recent fight. And even though he's still a terrible striker, Aoki continues to win. So Marcelo was just a convenient example.

[Kentucky Fried Chokin]

I know what you're trying to say. I think Alberto Crane is the best example. He's a world class grappler and got his ass kicked badly in both his fights, even against Kurt Pelligrino who's a less skilled grappling specialist.

[G-Off]

I know what you're trying to say. I think Alberto Crane is the best example. He's a world class grappler and got his ass kicked badly in both his fights, even against Kurt Pelligrino who's a less skilled grappling specialist.

Good example, thanks. Come to think of it, Pawel Nastula and Dean Lister are good examples too.

[PointyShinyBurn]

A better analogy would be, how would Bruce do against Faber or Chase Beebe? I don't know . . . but I'd put my money on him.

However skilled a striker Lee may or may not have been was he was definitely not a skilled grappler. Beebe or Faber would elbow his face off in the first round. This isn't a particular knock on his skills, at the time he lived there was probably no 145 pound guy in the world who would see the second round against Faber.

[plasma]

Until I see video evidence he is just another "Christian Ninjer" to me.

[DerAuslander]

Better a Christian ninjer than a Ninjew.

[Devil]

[QUOTE=shadow_priest_x]Again, I can't produce any sort of video evidence. I don't know the man he wasn't a competition fighter in the past. From what I HAVE seen, I don't think Bussey is someone you would want to fuck with.


You don't think he's someone you would want to fuck with because that's what you want to think. Period. The truth is, you have no idea how he would perform in a live situation. And if he hasn't tested himself in live situations, then he has no idea how he would perform, either.

A lot of old-school martial artists have a hard time swallowing this concept. I've been through it with my own traditional martial arts instructors. If they're too old to fight, I don't have a low opinion of them for not fighting. I know lots of older traditional artists that trained their asses off the best way they knew how and tested themselves in the best ways available at the time. But I don't just assume they're bad asses. Some of them have been doing what we now know is shitty training for thirty plus years.

A lot of those guys have plenty to offer, but they don't deserve to be regarded as bad asses just because they talk a good game and look slick when they do compliant drills. There's a new standard now. We don't just take your word for it.

[Vieux Normand]

About the OP's vid: awesome pyjama pants.

[Fitz]

Why isn't this in YMAS?

Using pat lines like "He's the real deal" make you sound more like a shill then someone trying to simply defend someone you respect. Perhaps it is simply the Tecate talking, but your approach is coming off as really odd, suggesting fanboy-ism.

Anyway, yes, Bussey had been in the Bujinkan but he balked at the Godan test and was ultimately disturbed by the Buddhist elements associated with that School and its members. When Ninjas were big business he was at the head of the line trying to cash in on the market. Can't fault him for that, but can't respect him for it either. He no longer claims to be teaching any form of Japanese martial art so I see no reason for this discussion to be taking place in this forum.

[DerAuslander]

Once a ninjer, always a ninjer.

& the only good ninjer is a dead ninjer...