Do you guys seriously doubt Robert Bussey's abillity?

[Kentucky Fried Chokin]

Jennum's record is 2-3. That makes him a pretty "average" fighter. It doesn't make him a bad fighter. If he was a bad fighter then he was have a record of 0-5. What kind of record do you think a student of Ashida Kim would have as a pro fighter?

2-3 is a losing record. Is Ashida Kim the standard you're trying to prove? I know, he's a ninja, but still you called him 'badass'.

Besides, again, you're not being fair. He's going up against Marco Fucking Ruas, who was one of the best fighters of his day. That's like Frank Trigg going up against Matt Hughes. Trigg is actually a damn good fighter in his own right but Hughes made him look just plain silly.

Trigg almost beat Hughes. He almost knoced him out and choked him.

The problem with this discussion is that clearly no one here is willing to give ANY credit. You guys are biased AGAINST Bussey. You should be starting off at 0 . . . a state of neutrality. Instead you're starting at a -5. That's plain for anyone to see.

If you claim ninjitsu, of course people are going to be biased against you because of the dismal track record of the booj.

[shadow_priest_x]

2-3 is a losing record. Is Ashida Kim the standard you're trying to prove? I know, he's a ninja, but still you called him 'badass'.

Here's the deal. I've explained over and over what I meant. I meant, he's a legit fighter. He's a legit instructor of martial arts. Not necessarily that he as an individual fighter is a bad ass competitor (because as I've mentioned I've never seen him fight). But he's still bad ass. He's a cool guy and he has some good material. To me, that's "badass." I'm not ignorant when it comes to MA. He has some cool techniques. I have assimiliated some of his stuff into my own skillset, and for good reason I believe.

My point in bringing up Ashida Kim is that he is "bullshido." He teaches a mockery of MA and is in it only for money. But I don't think that's Bussey's game at all. Yes, he's running a business, but I think that what he's teaching is good. If you're going to say that someone who practices Shotokan, or TKD, or kung fu is a legit martial artist . . . then Bussey is definitely a legit martial artist. That's ALL I was trying to say. He's not "bullshido" and doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the fakers.

If you claim ninjitsu, of course people are going to be biased against you because of the dismal track record of the booj.

I have never once mentioned his stuff when he was claiming "ninjitsu." He got past that. Personally, I actually liked the ninja stuff. I think it's very interesting. But he moved beyond that and his RBWI curriculum had very little to do with his previous ninjutsu stuff. There were no more shuriken or swords or underwater evasion. It was all gone. And everytime I've mentioned his fighting system here, I've always mentioned the RBWI. Not his earlier ninjutsu stuff.

Oh, and RE: Jennum. Yeah, by one fight, he's a "losing fighter." I'll tell you this though. He demonstrated some good skills in the fights he won, enough to show that he was a real fighter and real martial artist. That's really neither here nor there, though. Because the truth is that there's a lot of guys out there who would get SMASHED in pro-level competition. They're record would be 0 and however many fights they fought. But that doesn't mean they don't have good, solid skills.

[rw4th]

With that said, I think the fact that Bussey has been in fights of various kinds is pretty well attested to.

Still waiting for proof and/or sources.

[shadow_priest_x]

Still waiting for proof and/or sources.

Let me ask you this. And this is tentative. Not sure if I can deliver. But from that I understand, Jeremy Horn has actually trained extensively with Bussey in the past.

If Jeremy Horn were to say on the record that he believes Bussey to be a skilled martial artist and that he has improved his own game by what he's learned through training with Bussey, would that be significant?

[Jim_Jude]

The problem with this discussion is that clearly no one here is willing to give ANY credit. You guys are biased AGAINST Bussey. You should be starting off at 0 . . . a state of neutrality. Instead you're starting at a -5. That's plain for anyone to see.

He gets a Negative 5 for NINJA!!!

[Jim_Jude]

If you claim ninjitsu, of course people are going to be biased against you because of the dismal track record of the booj.

Have Bujinkan guys fought in the ring? I don't recall any.

[Kentucky Fried Chokin]

Have Bujinkan guys fought in the ring? I don't recall any.

Does booj refer to a specific retard of ninjers? LOL, I thought it was a general term for ninjitsu.

[Jim_Jude]

Let me ask you this. And this is tentative. Not sure if I can deliver. But from that I understand, Jeremy Horn has actually trained extensively with Bussey in the past.

I would definitely demand some serious proof for that one, not just you saying that you "talked to a guy that knew something"... From what I've seen of Robert Bussey's RBWI stuff, I think Horn spent A LOT of time training with someone else. You don't see any Bussey movement when when you watch Horn.

If Jeremy Horn were to say on the record that he believes Bussey to be a skilled martial artist and that he has improved his own game by what he's learned through training with Bussey, would that be significant?

That would be significant, in my book. It wouldn't establish Bussey as "badass" however, because until he actually does it, you will never know if he can pull off his high-speed techniques under serious pressure. Just because you have some good techniques in your curriculum, that doesn't mean shit. Hell, most if not all of what we know in Judo comes from TMA Japanese Jujutsu, but Judo's training methods are different than most TMA Jujutsu...

***** the main reason why this would mean something is because two of my favorite fights were Frank Shamrock fighting Jeremy Horn (what, like a decade ago?) and Frank fighting Cung Le. I still remember the look on Franks face when he got that knee bar on Horn. He kept wiping his forehead like "Gawddamn, I lucked out on that one!!!", & Mo Smith came in and seriously shook Horn's hand... That's wasn't a loss for Horn by any stretch of the imagination, only a learning experience. He definitely didn't get his ass kicked, he just made a silly mistake, could have happened to anyone.
In case you didn't notice, I like Jeremy Horn. I think he's one of the best underrated fighters in the game today.

[shadow_priest_x]

I would definitely demand some serious proof for that one, not just you saying that you "talked to a guy that knew something"... From what I've seen of Robert Bussey's RBWI stuff, I think Horn spent A LOT of time training with someone else. You don't see any Bussey movement when when you watch Horn.

Gotcha. Well I don't know what I can do but it so happens that I'm in Salt Lake City and Horn lives here now. Not sure if I could ever get any face time with him but it's not out of the question.

Now I know that this doesn't prove anything, but I have been corresponding with an ex-RBWI guy and this is what he had to say:

I'd be happy to share any stories you might want to hear about, anything specific? I spent 20 years training with Bussey. I have seen him handle the challenges from fully resistant people wanting a piece of him. I've seen him in knock down drag out sparring matches and protective gear, including mouth pieces, was rarely if ever worn (I have had the injuries to prove that)! I would love to hear what Jeremy Horn has to say about Bussey (Horn and I trained in RBWI together for years). I suspect he would have only good things to say about him.


Naturally this piqued my interest, so I looked up Horn's Wikipedia entry and found this:

His early martial arts training was under RBWI founder, Robert Bussey. Horn earned an RBWI black belt under Bussey in 1992.


So no, this isn't proof. But I would think it would be enough that you guys would have an open mind until I could assemble more evidence.

[Jim_Jude]

Gotcha. Well I don't know what I can do but it so happens that I'm in Salt Lake City and Horn lives here now. Not sure if I could ever get any face time with him but it's not out of the question.

Now I know that this doesn't prove anything, but I have been corresponding with an ex-RBWI guy and this is what he had to say:

Sorry. That's no good. I think we already said that third-hand stuff from "some guy" isn't gonna cut it.

Naturally this piqued my interest, so I looked up Horn's Wikipedia entry and found this:

His early martial arts training was under RBWI founder, Robert Bussey. Horn earned an RBWI black belt under Bussey in 1992.

So no, this isn't proof. But I would think it would be enough that you guys would have an open mind until I could assemble more evidence.

So, now we have "some guy" and a rather un-thorough Wiki entry. I hope you don't do your research off of Wiki...

[shadow_priest_x]

Sorry. That's no good. I think we already said that third-hand stuff from "some guy" isn't gonna cut it.

So, now we have "some guy" and a rather un-thorough Wiki entry. I hope you don't do our research off of Wiki...

Okay, well I at least thought I was on the right track. If you do a Google search for "Jeremy Horn Robert Bussey" you'll come up with a lot of stuff that links the two.

Anyway. . .

It doesn't even matter anymore.

[It is Fake]

I think Horn spent A LOT of time training with someone else. You don't see any Bussey movement when when you watch Horn.

Miletich Fight Systems

[rw4th]

Still waiting for proof and/or sources.

Let me ask you this. And this is tentative. Not sure if I can deliver. But from that I understand, Jeremy Horn has actually trained extensively with Bussey in the past.

If Jeremy Horn were to say on the record that he believes Bussey to be a skilled martial artist and that he has improved his own game by what he's learned through training with Bussey, would that be significant?

Let's start with a source to back up your claim that "the fact that Bussey has been in fights of various kinds is pretty well attested to", just to prove that you're not an obsessed fanboy with a man crush. If it's well attested to and you're basing your opinion on facts, then you should have no problem right?

[slideyfoot]

Robert Bussey produced students who could ALMOST actually fight. Guys like Scott Morris, and to a lesser extent Steve Jennum (Who trained in other, better styles).

I had a look into Bussey when writing up my UFC II summaryhereRobert Bussey's site is when he talks about the award Rorion gave him at UFC II...the same event where he let his fighter bleed all over the mat and did nothing about it:

At the second UFC in Denver Colorado, Robert Bussey received an award recognizing him as the "King Of Combat" and as a pioneer of reality based martial arts.

As a random sidenote, also while writing that summary, I came across someone on the internet claiming to be Morris' sister

[Holy Moment]

Jennum primarily chose to identify himself as an RBWI fighter.

He actually preferred to identify himself as a Freestyle fighter.