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Does Hatsumi know his ninja ryu lineages are fake?

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  • Muqatil
    replied
    Originally posted by Plasma

    Muqutil, as for the autobiography, its on the Bujinkan no-no list as it contradicts many of Hatsumi's teachings.
    If you mean the BIOgraphy that someone wrote on their own, you're kind of right.

    This short essay is not on any "no-no" list that I know of, nor does it contradict anything I've been told or taught.



    Edit: Crap! Just read Fitz's email. What he said.
    Last edited by Muqatil; 4/30/2008 6:35pm, .

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  • plasma
    replied
    Hmmm, I'll ask my friend for the book again, so I can see. You are probably right.

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  • Fitz
    replied
    Originally posted by Plasma

    Muqutil, as for the autobiography, its on the Bujinkan no-no list as it contradicts many of Hatsumi's teachings.
    You're thinking of the biography that Wolfgang Ettig wrote Takamatsu Toshitsugu: The Last Shinobi. The autobiography that was mentioned is an unpublished work retained privately.

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  • hiken
    replied
    Originally posted by Plasma
    Yeah, history books.
    :icon_roll :icon_roll :icon_roll

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  • plasma
    replied
    Yeah, history books.

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  • Permalost
    replied
    Does the Bujinkan have an Index of blasphemous texts?

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  • plasma
    replied
    Originally posted by CodosDePiedra
    Takamatsu had some interesting things to say:

    "In the martial arts there is no need to concentrate only on the aspect of winning when fighting. However, not to commit one's self to the fight is not a "martial art" - it is simply violence and such a person does not have an honest heart and is anti-humanist. Nowadays, there is a sport of Judo which concentrates upon the pleasure of fighting and the building up of their bodies. They only want to win and because of this they bend at their waist when fighting rather than maintaining their bodies upright. When I think of this judo sport, since its birth from real martial arts, I feel ashamed and it gives me a chilling sensation. A true martial artist wins by using the natural movements of the highest quality techniques and if one moves the body according to this theory then one will of course win. In martial arts you need three points; these are:"

    This one, too:
    "When I had been training for some time I decided that I wanted to know more about ninjutsu, and myself so I went to a mountain known as Maya-san in Kobe prefecture. At the mountain I lived by a waterfall called Kamenotaki for a period of one year. I stayed in a cottage the size of two tatami mats and lived on beans with no boiled rice. My training partners were the rocks around my cottage. Sometimes I would exercise my finger tips by hitting the rocks. I would jump up on the rocks with my Kiai and then jump off. During this time I developed a special sense. For instance: I could stand at the top of the mountain and know how many people were coming up, I could tell if they were men or women or otherwise. I became known as the "sennin" or "tengu" of the mountain. "

    Like most Japanese Martial arts, they get soft and "special" in their old age. I still prefer the Takamatsu who fought a challenge match with a Musashi-ryu practioner, was deafened by a Happa Ken defense to Seio Nage, then Takamatsu broke his ribs. The later in life post retirement rants and such I pretty indifferent too.

    Muqutil, as for the autobiography, its on the Bujinkan no-no list as it contradicts many of Hatsumi's teachings.

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  • Permalost
    replied
    Takamatsu had some interesting things to say:

    "In the martial arts there is no need to concentrate only on the aspect of winning when fighting. However, not to commit one's self to the fight is not a "martial art" - it is simply violence and such a person does not have an honest heart and is anti-humanist. Nowadays, there is a sport of Judo which concentrates upon the pleasure of fighting and the building up of their bodies. They only want to win and because of this they bend at their waist when fighting rather than maintaining their bodies upright. When I think of this judo sport, since its birth from real martial arts, I feel ashamed and it gives me a chilling sensation. A true martial artist wins by using the natural movements of the highest quality techniques and if one moves the body according to this theory then one will of course win. In martial arts you need three points; these are:"

    This one, too:
    "When I had been training for some time I decided that I wanted to know more about ninjutsu, and myself so I went to a mountain known as Maya-san in Kobe prefecture. At the mountain I lived by a waterfall called Kamenotaki for a period of one year. I stayed in a cottage the size of two tatami mats and lived on beans with no boiled rice. My training partners were the rocks around my cottage. Sometimes I would exercise my finger tips by hitting the rocks. I would jump up on the rocks with my Kiai and then jump off. During this time I developed a special sense. For instance: I could stand at the top of the mountain and know how many people were coming up, I could tell if they were men or women or otherwise. I became known as the "sennin" or "tengu" of the mountain. "

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  • Muqatil
    replied
    This article states that his autobiography was never released. http://www.joergjungkunz.de/dojo/interview.pdf

    I seem to recall a quote from Hatsumi-Sensei stating the same thing.

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  • Muqatil
    replied
    Happy for you. You found a very short article that some people call an autobiography. Not what I was talking about, but thank you anyway.

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  • kendamu
    replied
    Originally posted by Muqatil
    Evidence? I'm pretty sure that Takamatsu Sensei's "autobiography" isn't available publicly.
    http://www.jinenkanseigi.com/takamat...obiography.htm
    http://www.budotaijutsu.co.uk/budo_t...biography.html
    http://www.kbninjutsu.com/takamatsu1.html

    That's three of the four copies I found on the first page of a Google search.

    :seppuku:

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  • jessenwarrior
    replied
    Originally posted by Shinobi_Osiris
    i dont see why Togakure-ryu would be so "exclusive".......its not like its some ultimate form of ninpo........Togakure-ryu is for the most part a defensive and evasive ryuha

    that is very hyped up
    I agree its a defensive ryuha, I also agree its over hyped. There is so much more in the takamatuden arts that could be shown. These ryuha are exclusive like so many others because they are japanese family traditions and represent the arts founding the family linage, culture and fighting arts. So this means more to japanese people because its cultural, this is also what makes the menkyo kaiden so coveted.

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  • Soju_King
    replied
    i dont see why Togakure-ryu would be so "exclusive".......its not like its some ultimate form of ninpo........Togakure-ryu is for the most part a defensive and evasive ryuha

    that is very hyped up

    Leave a comment:


  • jessenwarrior
    replied
    Originally posted by shinbushi
    Wrong the Theme of 2008 is Togakure Ryu and that is what is being shown in Japan
    Know I'm pretty sure I'm correct, japanese TJM and there family traditional arts hold great weight in there culture. So to be a true disciple of many old ryuha and even some gendai ones, Keppan is given at some point usually, this is considered very serious. And I never said Togakure ryu wasent the theme, just if a person isnt a disiple of said ryuha, odds are your only training with variations. And from my understanding Hatsumi Soke dosent give traditional ryuha licences anymore. He only licence for Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu Organization and not independent ryuha. Which in my OPINION, opens the door for a theme of variations which protects the true techniques of the ryuha form the geijin, because I'm sure the top japanese students do train in ryuha. Like I said this is just my OPINION, to many variations not enough substance. Good luck in your training.:icon_salu

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  • shinbushi
    replied
    Originally posted by jessenwarrior
    From my understanding of traditional arts no booji guy actually trains in togakure ryu unless there accepted into that ryuha, and then take keppan. They more or less train in variations of Togakure ryu given by there soke which may or may not be close to accurate of the actual ryuha. Your right in whats mostly taught is the other ryuha, I believe mostly as variations in booji training. The Genbukan ninpo is from my understanding is the only ninpo org, which allow students to train in traditional ryuha and recieve up to shodan, chudan, okudan, and even menkyo kaiden once they reach 4th dan or higher.
    Wrong the Theme of 2008 is Togakure Ryu and that is what is being shown in Japan

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