Does Hatsumi know his ninja ryu lineages are fake?

[plasma]

Once you get outside of the Bujinkan writing you'd be surprised how much stuff is written on Takamatsu from his other students. Ueno is a place to start. How many of these have been translated into English, i have no idea.

[rw4th]

Think about this way:

1- If Hatsumi doesn't realize by now that his lineage is AT BEST questionable, then he's an idiot or at best a simpleton.
2- If Hatsumi does know, or even doubts it, then he's willfully maintaining the lie for his benefit.

Either way, does this seem like the kind of person you want to learn anything from, or even associate with?

[jessenwarrior]

Hatsumi having a questionable lineage does not equate to an entirely false one. Remember Daito ryu lineage is questionable as well and its considered koryu. Also all the japanese shihans (nagato) martial abilities looks fine, its the none japanese (gaijin) martial abilities that look like bunnies. Maybe the none japanese students arn"t receiving the correct teaching by Hatsumi. Also with the development of so many honorable martial traditions over the last four hundred, or so years, the meiji restoration and WW2, its very difficult for the ninja martial tradition to have survived, but not imposible. Even if those facetious samurai at koryu.com say different. Just my opinion.

[shmuel]

Samurai run koryu.com?

[jessenwarrior]

Samurai run koryu.com?

Well I do know they propagate their own beliefs, and there very exclusive to themselves and there own inner circle and the samurai traditions they like. Even if those traditions are questionable like daito ryu, in their ryu-ha guide and those traditions that are not questioned as koryu like kukishin ryu. Well maybe they dont list it because those ninpo practitioners, practice this ryuha or maybe because they dont like takamatsu, but this is neither here nor there. Its their site they do what they want. Just my opinion.

[john silver]

http://www.chinatownconnection.com/m...tion-ninja.htm

[Elemental Fist]

http://www.chinatownconnection.com/m...tion-ninja.htm

Good find, had no idea, had no idea some considered Jubei a ninja.

[john silver]

Good find, had no idea, had no idea some considered Jubei a ninja.

The more you know.

And it's not ninja any more, the term is Shinobi now and forever onwards.


I think it's about time bullshido actively started promoting the shinobi with historical accuracy instead of propagating the hyped up image of the ninja in popular culture and in the media.

[Elemental Fist]

The more you know.

And it's not ninja any more, the term is Shinobi now and forever onwards.


I think it's about time bullshido actively started promoting the shinobi with historical accuracy instead of propagating the hyped up image of the ninja in popular culture and in the media.

Yeah, and Shinobi is actually a cooler word than Ninja.

[Liger]

The things Ive seen from Togakure always seemed like a combination of or modified versions of techniques from other ryuha like Gyokku and Kukishi. And mostly bad body mechanics and LARPERS with some exceptions.

[jessenwarrior]

The things Ive seen from Togakure always seemed like a combination of or modified versions of techniques from other ryuha like Gyokku and Kukishi. And mostly bad body mechanics and LARPERS with some exceptions.

From my understanding of traditional arts no booji guy actually trains in togakure ryu unless there accepted into that ryuha, and then take keppan. They more or less train in variations of Togakure ryu given by there soke which may or may not be close to accurate of the actual ryuha. Your right in whats mostly taught is the other ryuha, I believe mostly as variations in booji training. The Genbukan ninpo is from my understanding is the only ninpo org, which allow students to train in traditional ryuha and recieve up to shodan, chudan, okudan, and even menkyo kaiden once they reach 4th dan or higher.

[jessenwarrior]

The more you know.

And it's not ninja any more, the term is Shinobi now and forever onwards.


I think it's about time bullshido actively started promoting the shinobi with historical accuracy instead of propagating the hyped up image of the ninja in popular culture and in the media.

Actually in japan, Ninja have operated under a variety of titles. Shinobi, Kusa, Suppa, Rappa, Toppa or Tsuppa etc. Takeda Shingan during the sengoku period used the term Mitsumono that translates as 'three persons'. Mitsumono were divided into three parts: Kaiken - those peering in, Kenbun - those watching and listening, and Metsuke - those checking on other operatives. There are many other names that the ancient or (pre modern) Ninja used. Also I believe the reading and spelling for Ninja is a modern translation from the older shinobi kanji. Some info is from Ninpo Secrets.

[Soju_King]

Once you get outside of the Bujinkan writing you'd be surprised how much stuff is written on Takamatsu from his other students. Ueno is a place to start. How many of these have been translated into English, i have no idea.

interesting.

[shinbushi]

From my understanding of traditional arts no booji guy actually trains in togakure ryu unless there accepted into that ryuha, and then take keppan. They more or less train in variations of Togakure ryu given by there soke which may or may not be close to accurate of the actual ryuha. Your right in whats mostly taught is the other ryuha, I believe mostly as variations in booji training. The Genbukan ninpo is from my understanding is the only ninpo org, which allow students to train in traditional ryuha and recieve up to shodan, chudan, okudan, and even menkyo kaiden once they reach 4th dan or higher.

Wrong the Theme of 2008 is Togakure Ryu and that is what is being shown in Japan

[jessenwarrior]

Wrong the Theme of 2008 is Togakure Ryu and that is what is being shown in Japan

Know I'm pretty sure I'm correct, japanese TJM and there family traditional arts hold great weight in there culture. So to be a true disciple of many old ryuha and even some gendai ones, Keppan is given at some point usually, this is considered very serious. And I never said Togakure ryu wasent the theme, just if a person isnt a disiple of said ryuha, odds are your only training with variations. And from my understanding Hatsumi Soke dosent give traditional ryuha licences anymore. He only licence for Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu Organization and not independent ryuha. Which in my OPINION, opens the door for a theme of variations which protects the true techniques of the ryuha form the geijin, because I'm sure the top japanese students do train in ryuha. Like I said this is just my OPINION, to many variations not enough substance. Good luck in your training.:icon_salu