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    Originally posted by Migukclaus View Post
    So is a park district..costs less too.


    That makes no sense at all. If you feel ATA is not a martial art school, "real" or otherwise, why bother spending the money there in the first place? Also, why uproot them and stick them in another school? That only gives a headache to the next instructor who has to break them of specific habits in order to have them learn their system. Plus what message do you send to the kids. You were not really learning martial arts you were just learning to jump around in cute white pajamas?
    Yeah, the park district sports programs...not so impressive. The students/young-adults teaching there don't know the first thing about commitment or respect, much less character-building. I personally found the ATA cost worthwhile, although I did not appreciate the undisclosed costs. My kids learned basic tae kwon do, sans the sweeps and ground fighting. And we are not actually planning on going to another martial arts school. So...?

    Originally posted by Migukclaus View Post
    First of all most contracts you enter into are considered non-cancelleable. Try buying a car and then tell them you decided not to pay it off. Yes, they will repo the car, but your credit history is shot to hell. Plus schools have to do this because there are flipitant parents who sign Lil' Johnny up for karate lessons because he got a hard on watching Karate Kid, but as soon as he learned he will have to actually work he wants to quit. Health clubs have contracts too. Try just not showing up and say you want to cancel and see how nice they are about it.
    Your point? People should know what they are getting into before they sign? Yes, I agree, that was the point I was trying to make, along with the fact that in such a circumstance, there is no accountability on behalf of the school. So parents should observe classes and talk to current and previous attendees before they commit.


    Originally posted by Migukclaus View Post
    If the instructor is not providing quality instruction you can report him to the BBB. However, the proof will be on your end to prove that he/she is not providing quality instruction. Now if he/she is not even present on the floor and allowing some kid to teach then you can easily make a case. Bottom line is you read the contract and you know the prices and apparently you are willing to pay those prices so you can't really be pissed a the ATA for what they are charging.
    Originally posted by Migukclaus View Post
    While it is good business to disclose this information, they do not have to. If your contract did not stipulate you needed to purchase an annual membership, then you do not have to. Same with the belt testing, if you do not want to pay for it then don't. However, if membership is required for Lil' Johnny to promote well then it is your call. Your contract is for instruction in martial arts and you are paying for just that. Nothing more...nothing less. All other activity payments such as testing, tournaments, organizational fees, etc. are seperate and do not have to be disclosed. Unethical...no. Bad business on their part? Yes.
    Have you heard the news about the BBB? Pay the money, you get an A. Don't pay, you get a bad grade. Don't hang your hat on the BBB!

    I know they don't have to, but IMO it is unethical; in yours, it is not. As a licensed, financial practitioner, I would lose my license if I ever tried to pull something like this. With many ethics exams and years of financial and business experience under my belt, I think I am a good judge of what is ethical in business. But when you come down to individuals and businesses that aren't held to a standard of ethics, what is ethical becomes no more than a matter of opinion.

    The stated purpose of the contract was for the achievement of black belt. (Boy, I'm going to get some nasty comments about that!) Any reasonable person would not expect additional charges (membership and testing fees) outside of the contract required to achieve black belt, other than for equipment. You interpreted "take exception with" as my being PO'd? Interesting jump. What I was trying to say was that I said I didn't appreciate ATA's methodolgy of requiring payments above and beyond the contract in order to achieve the goal stated in the contract.

    Overall, my experience with ATA was very positive and it was a good experience for my kids. The end!

    Comment


      Your repeated posts and the appeal to authority in the last post makes your username ironic.

      Originally posted by seekchat View Post
      Yeah, the park district sports programs...not so impressive. The students/young-adults teaching there don't know the first thing about commitment or respect, much less character-building. I personally found the ATA cost worthwhile, although I did not appreciate the undisclosed costs. My kids learned basic tae kwon do, sans the sweeps and ground fighting. And we are not actually planning on going to another martial arts school. So...?



      Your point? People should know what they are getting into before they sign? Yes, I agree, that was the point I was trying to make, along with the fact that in such a circumstance, there is no accountability on behalf of the school. So parents should observe classes and talk to current and previous attendees before they commit.






      Have you heard the news about the BBB? Pay the money, you get an A. Don't pay, you get a bad grade. Don't hang your hat on the BBB!

      I know they don't have to, but IMO it is unethical; in yours, it is not. As a licensed, financial practitioner, I would lose my license if I ever tried to pull something like this. With many ethics exams and years of financial and business experience under my belt, I think I am a good judge of what is ethical in business. But when you come down to individuals and businesses that aren't held to a standard of ethics, what is ethical becomes no more than a matter of opinion.

      The stated purpose of the contract was for the achievement of black belt. (Boy, I'm going to get some nasty comments about that!) Any reasonable person would not expect additional charges (membership and testing fees) outside of the contract required to achieve black belt, other than for equipment. You interpreted "take exception with" as my being PO'd? Interesting jump. What I was trying to say was that I said I didn't appreciate ATA's methodolgy of requiring payments above and beyond the contract in order to achieve the goal stated in the contract.

      Overall, my experience with ATA was very positive and it was a good experience for my kids. The end!

      Comment


        Originally posted by It is Fake View Post
        No, I interpreted it as someone who has only experienced one martial art and has a ton of bias.

        So, you repeat what you typed while denying it is for justification? Wow. Like I said you have a ton to learn about Martial arts.

        One of the top respected martial arts, Judo, teaches everything you just type and competes in the similar venues as TKD.

        Hardcore is a starwman used by people that do not understand Martial Arts.




        Your comments were taken at face value. You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to martial arts. .
        What bias? Stating my experiences about ATA are a bias? And you have none? You have a huge chip on your shoulder!

        Originally posted by It is Fake View Post
        I said nothing about justification of why you did what you did. You are trying to justify your lack of Martial Understanding.
        Oh, I guess I must have misread your previous post:

        Originally posted by It is Fake View Post
        You have a ton to learn about martial arts in general if you really believe this justification of "adult" vs. "child" activities.
        I've posted my experience for individuals who may be researching ATA as an option for their children. I could have benefitted from the information before I signed onto ATA. Overall, I am satisfied with my ATA experience, but there were surprises. I'm not interested in verbal (or physical, lol) sparring with you or anyone else. I didn't post this (my original post) for you or people who want to attack me or ATA. It's for people who want to know more about ATA.

        Comment


          Originally posted by tkd panda View Post
          Sorry if Im misunderstanding but what Im getting from your post is that you're not putting your kids through the ATA's system to learn self defence but to give them an activity with goals that can be accomplished.


          Also you dont like the fee's system I cant help but think you could have found another activity that meets with what you want your kids to get out of it without the unethical and unaccountable fee's experianced in the ATA.
          Wow, I really appreciate your even-keeled response. Yes, that was part of it, in addition to reinforcing life skills such as respect, perseverance, self-confidence, etc. I did also expect a level of martial arts and self-defense skills, but I did not have the naive impression that an ATA black belt was on par with a black belt achieved in non-ATA schools. I was aware that ATA would not teach all aspects of TKD like sweeps, take-downs, etc.

          I didn't know about the additional fees until I was stuck in the contract. In the end, I left satisfied even with the additional fees. My kids went for 5 & 6 years respectively under a 3-year contract; even when we were no longer required to pay, they continued to attend for free until they earned their black belts. I believe we had one of the very good ATA schools and instructors.

          As for other activities that would have achieved similar goals, there were no other good activites that start at 3 years of age! And my younger child was tired of sitting on the sidelines. When my kids were old enough to meet the age requirements of the other activities, I found two extremes the majority of the time: win at all cost (yelling, deriding, disrespectful) or lackadaisical. Even as my kids continued to play sports in conjunction with ATA, I have not experienced any activity that gave them such a well-rounded set of personal life skills.

          I hope that my post about ATA will provide useful information to other parents interested in ATA, including what to expect and what to be wary of.
          Last edited by seekchat; 12/14/2010 7:14pm, .

          Comment


            Originally posted by seekchat View Post
            Wow, I really appreciate your even-keeled response. Yes, that was part of it, in addition to reinforcing life skills such as respect, perseverance, self-confidence, etc. I did also expect a level of martial arts and self-defense skills, but I did not have the naive impression that an ATA black belt was on par with a black belt achieved in non-ATA schools. I was aware that ATA would not teach all aspects of TKD like sweeps, take-downs, etc.

            I didn't know about the additional fees until I was stuck in the contract. In the end, I left satisfied even with the additional fees. My kids went for 5 & 6 years respectively under a 3-year contract; even when we were no longer required to pay, they continued to attend for free until they earned their black belts. I believe we had one of the very good ATA schools and instructors.

            As for other activities that would have achieved similar goals, there were no other good activites that start at 3 years of age! And my younger child was tired of sitting on the sidelines. When my kids were old enough to meet the age requirements of the other activities, I found two extremes the majority of the time: win at all cost (yelling, deriding, disrespectful) or lackadaisical. Even as my kids continued to play sports in conjunction with ATA, I have not experienced any activity that gave them such a well-rounded set of personal life skills.
            To be quite honest I dont think you understand martial arts unless you keep your children attending well into thier teens they wont retain any of the skills they might have learned.

            As for them achieving blackbelt at such a young age if they have that means nothing in terms of thier ability to defend themselves in the future and the fact they have been granted a blackbelt at such a young age indicates that the school is just another ATA McDojo in a long line of ATA McDojo's.

            Also you have no stated experiance in the martial arts yet consider yourself qualified to know whether or not your children are attending a good school.
            What have you done to come to this conclusion?

            Did you look around at other martial arts schools in your area and compare the students abilities and progress to that of your kids?

            Or is it that you're more happy for your kids to have a sense of accomplishment and some lifeskills that can also be gained through any activity that requires commitment and perseverance?

            Comment


              Originally posted by seekchat View Post
              What bias? Stating my experiences about ATA are a bias? And you have none? You have a huge chip on your shoulder!
              I have a chip? If I have a chip you must have a boulder because, you are still crying about things I never addressed. I said you need to learn about Martial Arts.How about you get that justification boulder out of your eye. You are reading things into my posts that do not exist.

              Getting mad at being told that you need to learn about martial arts before dividing it up into Hardcore, sport, adult, child and other weird things shows Bias.

              I've posted my experience for individuals who may be researching ATA as an option for their children. I could have benefitted from the information before I signed onto ATA. Overall, I am satisfied with my ATA experience, but there were surprises. I'm not interested in verbal (or physical, lol) sparring with you or anyone else.
              Thanks further clarification that your name is ironic. So, what you want is to be able to post uncontested diatribes? Well, see you later as you will not like this website.
              I didn't post this (my original post) for you or people who want to attack me or ATA. It's for people who want to know more about ATA.
              Now, you attacked me with passive aggressive insults twice. More Irony.

              Comment


                Originally posted by seekchat View Post
                Yeah, the park district sports programs...not so impressive. The students/young-adults teaching there don't know the first thing about commitment or respect, much less character-building.
                And you know this how? By talking with them...by watching one or two classes...by observing them and then using your vast indepth martial arts experience? Also, is there only one park district in your town that teaches only one specific martial art?

                I personally found the ATA cost worthwhile, although I did not appreciate the undisclosed costs. My kids learned basic tae kwon do, sans the sweeps and ground fighting. And we are not actually planning on going to another martial arts school. So...?
                But didn't you say ATA was good for exercise but you didn't consider it "real" martial arts? So they were learning martial arts but they weren't learning "real" martial arts? What exactly is your definition of "real" and what, if any, experience do you hold in order to justify what "real" martial arts is and isn't?



                Your point? People should know what they are getting into before they sign? Yes, I agree, that was the point I was trying to make, along with the fact that in such a circumstance, there is no accountability on behalf of the school. So parents should observe classes and talk to current and previous attendees before they commit.
                Ok...and by that statement alone, you have no reason to be upset with the undisclosed costs that you are referencing. You said yourself you should observe classes, talk to current and previous attendees. How about just asking the simply question to the person who gave you the contract "Are there any other fees I need to know about?"

                Speaking as a person who has been involved in martial arts for 30 years, belt test fees are just a natural thing. I never mention it to anyone signing up, not because I'm unethical, it is because frankly I don't think about it, becaue it has always just been a part of the martial art school culture. My guess is the person who gave you the contract is the same way. So before you go off half-cocked about them being unethical, you should actually try to understand both sides.


                Have you heard the news about the BBB? Pay the money, you get an A. Don't pay, you get a bad grade. Don't hang your hat on the BBB!
                Then stop all payments, don't show up to classes and when they push the issue take them to court. Regardless you will still have to prove they are not doing their job in providing quality teaching.

                The stated purpose of the contract was for the achievement of black belt. (Boy, I'm going to get some nasty comments about that!) Any reasonable person would not expect additional charges (membership and testing fees) outside of the contract required to achieve black belt, other than for equipment.
                Not true. I have signed up thousands of people in my 30 years. I rarely ever speak about testing fees. I have never had an instance yet were someone claimed that I was unethical or that I should have disclosed the fees nor have I had anyone come pissed off because they didn't know about the testing fees. Go into most sports and you have some sort of Organization fee to pay. Baseball, Football, Hockey, whatever....there are always fees to pay.

                You interpreted "take exception with" as my being PO'd? Interesting jump. What I was trying to say was that I said I didn't appreciate ATA's methodolgy of requiring payments above and beyond the contract in order to achieve the goal stated in the contract.
                Fine...PO's is too harsh. Your exception should be towards yourself for not doing your homework or asking all possible questions such as "Are there any other fees outside of monthly tuition?"

                Overall, my experience with ATA was very positive and it was a good experience for my kids. The end!
                Then why even chime in on this thread in the first place with an elongated posting when all you had to say was the above. The more detail you give the more you will questioned. Don't be pissy with us because we are seeking chat with you.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by seekchat View Post
                  What bias? Stating my experiences about ATA are a bias? And you have none? You have a huge chip on your shoulder!
                  No stating your opinoin on ATA is not biased. Making statements on what you consider "real" based on exposure to one martial art and no experience yourself in the martial arts is biased.


                  I've posted my experience for individuals who may be researching ATA as an option for their children. I could have benefitted from the information before I signed onto ATA. Overall, I am satisfied with my ATA experience, but there were surprises. I'm not interested in verbal (or physical, lol) sparring with you or anyone else. I didn't post this (my original post) for you or people who want to attack me or ATA. It's for people who want to know more about ATA.
                  Then you should post your experience as an information sheet not an opinoinated view point. Once you start expression opinoins such as comparing something to "real" martial arts you should be prepared for such "verbal" sparrings.

                  You could have put this:
                  I enrolled my children into ATA. My overall experience was very good. They learned martial arts as well as goal setting skills. A person signing up with this organization should also note that they do charge for belt testings and you will have to pay an organizational fee.

                  See brief to the point and you get your message across.

                  I think Bodhi said it best. This website is not for you.

                  Comment


                    I dont think he's coming back to play with us anymore.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by tkd panda View Post
                      I dont think he's coming back to play with us anymore.
                      We will see...I have a feeling he will.

                      Comment


                        I've posted my experience for individuals who may be researching ATA as an option for their children. I could have benefitted from the information before I signed onto ATA. Overall, I am satisfied with my ATA experience, but there were surprises. I'm not interested in verbal (or physical, lol) sparring with you or anyone else. I didn't post this (my original post) for you or people who want to attack me or ATA. It's for people who want to know more about ATA.
                        I haven't chimed in for a while since my original post a few months back. Obviously, I needed to learn a bit more about martial arts schools, etc., and read other posts on this forum for additional information and feedback. I've received valuable information about martial arts training as well as physical conditioning on here.

                        Personally, my ATA experience has been valuable for me. Of course, there are skeptics because of ATA's reputation as a McDojo, and I understand that people will question my experiences as well.

                        My school has been pretty cool so far. In terms of the McDojo approach, I haven't seen it at my school. My instructor has been with the ATA for approximately 40 years and is pretty "old school" and doesn't hand out belts. If you aren't doing what you are supposed to do, you DON'T test. If your technique is bad, or if you don't know the forms, can't spar, etc., you do NOT get to test and do not get promoted in rank.

                        Also, and this may be a rarity but even though my school does use contracts, you are permitted to set the terms of the contract. You can do 30 days, 90 days, 6 months, one year, whatever. There is no pressure to sign a long term contract.

                        My instructor not only teaches taekwondo, but introduces us to other things as well such as practical self-defense as well as ground fighting.

                        On the down side, yes I do see some issues: too much emphasis on forms, board breaks, and having to buy everything through ATA does stink.

                        I'm 50 years old and a firm believer too that if you put forth 100% effort, you benefit. If you're there so you can say you have a belt or want to brag about taking taekwondo to friends, you're obviously missing the point.

                        I train hard in between classes with strength training and practice kicks and punches, etc. Unfortunately, there are students who come in to class and the moment they walk out the door they do nothing until you see them in class again. Some are overweight and out of shape and I just don't get it....if you do something half-assed, your results will be half-assed.

                        I agree....some of the ATA schools are McDojos. I recenltly competed in a tournament and was surprised how terrible some of the students from known belt factories performed.

                        I think it's important to do your research. Also, if it comes too easy, something is wrong, whether it's taekwondo or weight training or anything else in life.

                        Not looking for an argument here or pages and pages of going back and forth. My point is, it's important to find a good school and work hard.

                        At the age of 50, I'm not looking to become a professional fighter. I'm looking for learning to fight, keeping in shape, and having fun but at the same time putting 100% effort into it. I wholeheartedly agree with others who say avoid the long term contracts.

                        The other thing I noticed is that fees vary from school to school. I pay $85 a month but one school in my area (which is a McDojo) charges $120 a month. The problem, as I see it, is that the oversight of such a large organization is difficult, if not lacking in some areas. Some instructors and school owners still believe in integrity while others are looking to make a buck.

                        Just my opinions, nothing more.

                        Comment


                          At the age of 50, I'm not looking to become a professional fighter. I'm looking for learning to fight, keeping in shape, and having fun but at the same time putting 100% effort into it. I wholeheartedly agree with others who say avoid the long term contracts.
                          Welcome to bullshido. We aren't saying don't enjoy what you do. The argument "professional fighter" is a tired argument. People take BJJ for the same reasons you listed. People take Muay Thai for the same reasons you listed. People take Boxing for the same reasons you listed. People take MMA for the same reasons you listed.

                          If you like what you do enjoy it, but please don't justify it by saying you train this because you don't want to be a professional. I mean seriously, that means no one should play Basket Ball, Base Ball or Tennis.

                          Comment


                            On another topic:

                            I cannot decide what I think about this-
                            http://www.ataonline.com/mediacenter/media3.asp

                            but in one sense I like the fact that they are at least trying to modify our style to incorporate more than just slappy Taekwondo.

                            Comment


                              What was the point in wearing pads if you're going to use such flimsy weapons. The Asian fellow movement was okay on the ground. I'll give credit where credit is due at least they're trying....

                              Still a Mcdojo.

                              Comment


                                yeah, I don't know what the damn fascination with all the extra padding is- it drives me nuts every time I go to an ATA school.

                                Comment

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