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[shadow_priest_x]

I hope you realize many folks here have been training long as you were alive or more. Some are and were ama/pro fighters and/or coach in various format including MMA, MT, and Olympic Judo. Also many on this forum are not faceless internet people who are keyboard warriors. Many on this forum will gladly meet up to throwdown either sparring or even far as going to fighting venue. Search for omega, der, and you will see videoes of them. Even myself if that matters for anything.

No doubt there are people here who have infinitely more training than I have. A lot of my knowledge is theoretical. I'm a journalist, so a lot of it has come by watching others or reading . . . not directly participating myself (though as I've made clear I do, and have done, some training of my own).

To say that my opinion is invalidated because someone else may know more than I do--not that you said that directly, but you implied it--is like saying I don't deserve to have an opinion on politics because I didn't live through the Vietnam War. There will ALWAYS be people who know more, have done more, have thought more, and are better than all of us.

With that said, I didn't even jump into this thread because I disagreed with what most people were saying about the ATA. I wanted to comment on people being dicks to someone, which really doesn't have anything to do with martial arts at all. It has to do with being a human being.

What's your definition of 'traditionalist'? If it is matter of how old a styles has been around and how its trained. MT is far more traditional than TKD in both areas. Heck even BJJ is more traditional than TKD in those two sense.

MT is in its current form as a ring sport is a fairly recent invention and has evolved significantly from its ancient roots. But you're right, the term "traditional martial arts" is a bit of a misnomer. So when I use the term I am using it in its common usage form, essentially meaning Chinese, Japanese, or Korean martial arts that are more than 50 years old.

We'll agree that it doesn't make literal sense, but we both know what people are talking about when they say "TMA."

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

...With that said, if you have a form in which you are supposed to do a side-kick, and you work on that form 1,000 times with an emphasis on improving, then your sidekick should get better overtime and that is something that should eventually help you in a combat sense. You may need to train that sidekick in other ways as well, such as hitting a heavybag and using it in sparring, but in terms of improving the way you actually do the technique, the form/kata/routine/pattern certainly will be beneficial...

Sorry to say, but you are mixing up sparring, drill, bunkai and kata.

Even that I'm an ex-Taekwondoka, I'm going to explain it to you using a Muay Thai 5-count.

The 5-count is: left roundhouse kick, jab, cross, (+ closing distance), (clinch +) right knee to the abdomen, (push away to the right +) right roundhouse kick. so, left roundhouse, jab-cross, right knee and right roundhouse.

If I train the 5-count with a partner who's holding pads, I'm doing the drill.

If my partner is wearing his gloves and counterstrikes (feeds) a cross after my left roundhouse kick that I intercept/block and then finish the rest of the 5-count, I'm doing bunkai (two man kata).

If I'm training my 5-count in front of the mirror, without a partner and focusing on doing the perfect technique, I'm doing kata.

And in sparring when my opponent comes in with a cross after I did a left roundhouse kick, it's fighting.

The drill learns you to memorize the routine and put power in your techniques.
The bunkai learns you the timing and distance.
The kata learns you to do the "perfect" technique (since their is no resistance)
The sparring learns you to use the 5-count in a fight when the conditions of the bunkai manefest themselfs.

The problem with most kata nowadays is that they aren't based on the bunkai anymore.

So you get
1) unrealistic combinations of techniques (in kata that isn't based on bunkai)
2) since the bunkai is missing the timing and distance is offbeat if you would use a kata sequence in a fight (in systems that has kata that is/was based on bunkai)
3) Kata has never been a tool to become a fighter, that's where the drill, bunkai and sparring are for. Kata is the tool with which you learn to have control over your own body to perform the techniques picture perfect correctly.

[shadow_priest_x]

^^^^ I don't see how anything that I posted conflicts with what you just said here.

I said that kata will help you learn proper FORM regarding the individual technique and you agreed.

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

^^^^ I don't see how anything that I posted conflicts with what you just said here.

I said that kata will help you learn proper FORM regarding the individual technique and you agreed.

[babo78]

No doubt there are people here who have infinitely more training than I have. A lot of my knowledge is theoretical. I'm a journalist, so a lot of it has come by watching others or reading . . . not directly participating myself (though as I've made clear I do, and have done, some training of my own).

To say that my opinion is invalidated because someone else may know more than I do--not that you said that directly, but you implied it--is like saying I don't deserve to have an opinion on politics because I didn't live through the Vietnam War. There will ALWAYS be people who know more, have done more, have thought more, and are better than all of us.

With that said, I didn't even jump into this thread because I disagreed with what most people were saying about the ATA. I wanted to comment on people being dicks to someone, which really doesn't have anything to do with martial arts at all. It has to do with being a human being.



MT is in its current form as a ring sport is a fairly recent invention and has evolved significantly from its ancient roots. But you're right, the term "traditional martial arts" is a bit of a misnomer. So when I use the term I am using it in its common usage form, essentially meaning Chinese, Japanese, or Korean martial arts that are more than 50 years old.

We'll agree that it doesn't make literal sense, but we both know what people are talking about when they say "TMA."

You are entitled to your opinions. Thanks to country we live in, we have freedom to do so. However having an opinion does not mean it carries weight. Weight of opinion is built upon expertise of the field by combination of experience, education, skill, knowledge,etc. Also opinion and fact that two different things.

That said. You have very little expertise in this area of martial arts. You are welcome to express your opinion however that does not mean it means much for the topic we are discussing in this thread.

Who is more credible? Individuals who have vast experience and knowledge? Or someone with very limited experience and knowledge?

[shadow_priest_x]

You are entitled to your opinions. Thanks to country we live in, we have freedom to do so. However having an opinion does not mean it carries weight. Weight of opinion is built upon expertise of the field by combination of experience, education, skill, knowledge,etc. Also opinion and fact that two different things.

That said. You have very little expertise in this area of martial arts. You are welcome to express your opinion however that does not mean it means much for the topic we are discussing in this thread.

Who is more credible? Individuals who have vast experience and knowledge? Or someone with very limited experience and knowledge?

Certainly experience is important. Is there anything I've said in this thread that you don't actually agree with, though?

I said I was in an ATA school for a year and a half. That's true. It was 17 years ago, so I have no idea how things have changed since then. But, like I said in an earlier post, the instructors were sincere and were skilled at their brand of TKD. Do I feel that most people will really learn to fight in an ATA school? Most people will not, but I am sure there are schools with good instructors who go a little harder and actually impart good self-defense skills to their students. Is there anything controversial in this paragraph? Is there anything that you, or most other posters here, would disagree with? I don't claim to have any current experience with the ATA, but again, coming from a journalistic background I have talked with SEVERAL people who have in recent days been involved with the ATA. I've also seen plenty of video examples of what they're up these days, including their forms, their sparring, and their whole XMA thing.

With that said, I do know there is at least one example of an ATA competitor who has had at least some modicum in the full-contact arena.


Chris Martin in an ATA sparring match:

YouTube- Chris Martin ATA Taekwondo Knockout



Chris Martin in a kickboxing match:

YouTube- Christopher Martin Knocks Out Opponent in 50 Seconds!


But no, I do not expect most ATA fighters' skills to translate well to the ring.

As for my second point, regarding MT, it's just true that the ring sport that we know as MT today is a different animal from its earlier predecessors. That's not really a matter of anything other than history and it's simply a fact.

Again, though, all I really ever said in this thread was that there's no need to gang up on someone who doesn't agree with you, and again, that has nothing to do with martial arts. If someone is giving an opinion that you don't agree with (not you specifically, but the general "you") and they give that opinion respectfully, then there's really no need to call them a moron, idiot, mentally retarded, etc.

[Kintanon]

Well, we kind of do the tough love thing over here. So if you say something that we think is stupid, you'll get called stupid. It's part of the sites culture. However, most people who follow the rules and read the stickies will post in Newbietown, where people are generally friendly and not allowed to mess with people too much. From there they will learn about the site and its general mission, get a taste of the forums etc... If they then read more than they post they'll run into very little trouble.
Now, if they genuinely believe that training nothing but Kata for 5 years will magically grant them the ability to defend themselves when the time comes well.... we'll shit all over them.

[DerAuslander]

Just talking to you the same way that you seem to like talking to others. when someone says something to you in a reasonable and polite way and you act like a prick in return . . . well, yeah, you need to have some shit said to you about that.

I have no problem with people talking shit to me.

You're still a fucking hypocrite for "sinking to my level", so don't even try to pull off some holier than thou bullshit.

You're no better than me.

Well, definitely this is true to an extent. I don't disagree at all. In fact, regarding the ATA specifically, I think that this is OVERTLY true with their choreographed musical routines and all that shit.

With that said, if you have a form in which you are supposed to do a side-kick, and you work on that form 1,000 times with an emphasis on improving, then your sidekick should get better overtime and that is something that should eventually help you in a combat sense. You may need to train that sidekick in other ways as well, such as hitting a heavybag and using it in sparring, but in terms of improving the way you actually do the technique, the form/kata/routine/pattern certainly will be beneficial.

None of this was what the previous poster was called out on. It's a red herring and completely irrelevant. I will not even discuss it.

I didn't say I could prove it or that I wasn't even interested in trying.

Then shut the fuck up.

Either contribute to the argument, or don't.

Your hypocritical sandvag whining about politeness when you can't even offer a counter-argument just shows your lack of intellectual rigor.

"I can't prove a point, but you're a Meanie McMangostein for saying the word fuck!"

Would you disagree with that? And if not, could that same principle not be applied in regard to dealing with stress while testing for rank promotion?

Prove that flunking a kid for dancing improperly has any bearing on handling adrenal crash in an ambush situation.

If you disagree, then that's fine. But don't be a dick about it.

Go fuck yourself.:5grouphug

I wanted to comment on people being dicks to someone, which really doesn't have anything to do with martial arts at all. It has to do with being a human being.

If you spout bullshit, you will be called on your bullshit. If you cannot handle that, then do not post here.

And if you read back over the thread, the worst thing I said to Balrog was that what he was saying was "bullshit". He pontificated, he had no proof, the thread died...until you came in.

I've called you much worse.

[Omega Supreme]

So I'm wondering if you're done with the "Captain Save a HO" routine?

*Edit. I took a break from this thread because Kintanon was out of line. My responses to your posts have been quite fair. If you are going to call me an asshole then back it up. I've been more than fair with ATA posters in the past. My question to you is what's your horse in all this?

[Daggermouth]

Hello! I (unfortunately) am one of those poor saps that the ATA fooled into thinking they taught me self-defense. I lived in a small town with limited MA resources. I took a lot of pride in my training and was completely crushed when I was forced to defend myself and was barely able to do so. (This was back in high school) The gentleman who attacked me had no training whatsoever and defeated me with pure adrenaline and anger.

After that I stopped training. I thought that all martial arts were BS. It wasn't until I moved to California and trained very briefly under a Master Sevenney (TKD, Hapkido) in Ventura, CA, that I learned the difference between sports schools and combat schools (He REALLY pointed me in the right direction). I honestly didn't think there was such a thing. ATA always said their BS would work Real World and I believed them. Shame on them for preying on the ignorant.

That being said, ATA did help facilitate my love for martial arts and was the catalyst for a valuable lesson. Also I learned pretty kicks. (Not powerful, just pretty)

[Omega Supreme]

Master Seveny is an asshole.

[Andelas]

AMWAY of martial arts...I like that. Accurate.

[Shu2jack]

I also heard a great story that their revered GM Lee was sponsored and brought to the US by GM Kim of the ACTA, a former leader of the ROC Army. GM Kim ran him off because he was unethical and a flat out crook. But I promise you if you go into any ATA school you will see a shrine to this "great" man in the entrance way.
ATA is top notch for marketing and money making I guess but not much else in my experience.

Where did you hear that from?

From my understanding he was invited over by one of the American GIs (Richard Reed) he taught TKD to and came over on a visitor visa. He had to go back to Korea, then got a visa to live in the U.S.

[Shu2jack]

A high ranking member of a large TKD organization accusing another high ranking member of a large TKD organization. Hmmm....

I did ATA TKD for about 15 years before I split, but I'm not quite sure about that one. What "unethical" things did he do? How was he a crook?

I only ask because while I have my problems with the ATA and some of its leaders and other seniors I have heard many good stories about HU Lee. I met him a few times and was personally impressed with him. IMO it was after his death in 2000 that the organization really changed course.

[It is Fake]

Basically, what is being said is hearsay as for your own personal actions. If you decide to believe what someone told you, because they were high ranking, that is fine. It is a big no-no on bullshido as even high ranking people lie for their own ends. Also, unless you have proof, you can be twisting or misinterpreting what was said. You also may be 100% correct but, no on reading your posts knows the truth.