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_ing _un antigrapple or How Do Hooks

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    _ing _un antigrapple or How Do Hooks

    I think I'm a little late to the party. I searched the forums and can't pin down where this whole Wing Chun "anti-grapple" meme started up. I've recently read three books about Wing Chun from different time periods ('60s, '80s, '00s) and nowhere did I find any mention of grappling, "anti-grappling", or anything much having to do with "grappling." I don't consider that a flaw in the system. You don't see much mention of grappling in Muay Thai, Boxing, or Savate books either. I'm probably taking it all a little too seriously. But can someone please point me to a resource where I can get unbiased, non-snarky information on Wing Chun?

    #2
    That's because there is no such thing as the anti-grapple. It surfaced in the mid to late 90's AFTER GJJ and the UFC slapped everyone in the face.

    That is why you can't find it in a book it didn't exist. Are there take downs and sweeps in CMA? Yes. WC is not a ground grappling art. Notice the careful use of phrase.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Bradford
      What style do you currently train?
      What style of Wing Chun do they practice?
      You would be surprised how effective a chunner can be in a clinch...
      Fixed that for you, Bradford.

      And please,

      use normal lettering,

      and

      check your spelling.

      Your post stands out in this thread for not the good reasons...
      The icon linking to your school review is not working either...

      Also, visit Newbietown and introduce yourself, if you don't mind.

      CLICK & WATCH
      :
      I got BULLSHIDO ON TV!!!

      "Bruce Lee sucks because I slammed my nuts with nunchucks trying to do that stupid shit back in the day. I still managed to have two kids. I forgive you Bruce.
      " - by Vorpal

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by It is Fake
        That's because there is no such thing as the anti-grapple. It surfaced in the mid to late 90's AFTER GJJ and the UFC slapped everyone in the face.

        That is why you can't find it in a book it didn't exist. Are there take downs and sweeps in CMA? Yes. WC is not a ground grappling art. Notice the careful use of phrase.
        I appreciate the response. I understand your point. I guess my question is "Who said that?" Since neither grappling nor full-contact fighting were invented in 1993 I assume that if the style had those techniques they would be mentioned somewhere. I have a book on Wing Chun written in 2002 so I assume the author was at least somewhat aware of the existence of the Gracies and MMA. There is no mention of the style having superior grappling defense or even being ideal for MMA competition. Seems to me so far that the style is designed to end street fights as quickly as possible with things like throat strikes and finger jabs to the eyes. No, I'm not arguing that it's "too deadly" for the ring. But since there are so few techniques eliminating those does hamstring the style.

        I apologize if I'm belaboring a point no one really cares to discuss. I've just read so many derisive Wing Chun screeds that I've decided to do the research and make an informed opinion. Can someone please provide me with a respected or certifiable book, website, or school that claims to teach "anti-grapple", "the REAL Wing Chun" or techniques "too deadly for the UFC"? I'm trying to keep this as academic as possible so please no links to posts by random trolls, internet tough guys, or bitter ex-students looking to settle a score. For some reason I've decided I care about this so my first step is to separate the truth from the numerous strawmen and red herrings I see paraded around these forums. I appreciate it.

        Comment


          #5
          Asking questions is what this forum is for IMO.

          I'll see what I can dig up it'll take me awhile but I'll get you some info.

          I doubt we can pinpoint who coined the phrase.

          Oh and the use of phrase wasn't directed at you. I have had enough of semantics battles with chunners.

          Comment


            #6
            I really do appreciate any info you could provide

            Comment


              #7
              The chun anti grapple as I know it was invented by Boztepe and EBMAS. You can look some of it up on youtube. Basically elbow strikes to the spine against the shoot, eye gouge as a mount defense, etc.

              Comment


                #8
                I still want to see how it goes when he meets the chunners, and spars them.

                I'm wondering how things turn out for him.


                And, if he indeed uses any information in this thread to counter the chun.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by CodosDePiedra
                  The chun anti grapple as I know it was invented by Boztepe and EBMAS. You can look some of it up on youtube. Basically elbow strikes to the spine against the shoot, eye gouge as a mount defense, etc.
                  From the EBMAS Website (http://www.ebmas.net/europa/home.php)

                  "WT is the smartest self-defense system ever thought of by humankind"

                  Oy vey...

                  I was under the impression that the whole "anti-grapple" thing was supposed to be the Wing Chun silver bullet against a BJJ guy in a sport-fight situation. I'm kind of disappointed that it's eye-gouging and spine-striking. I don't know much about WC and that's what I would do in a street fight.

                  Since it appears that the majority of this site is dedicated to Sifu Emin masturbatory aides and includes about a half-dozen other Bullshido red flags I will thank you kindly for bringing it to my attention, take the information contained under advisement, and walk away with a better understanding of why people mock Wing Chun. I, however remain undaunted in my quest...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    To be fair the anti-grapple is a specific chun name. It exists in many arts. I studied a shaolin derivative, chun, kempo, and a Korean art. Many of the crappling techniques are in these systems. The exact crap that is spewed from chun teachers is spewed by other styles of kung fu minus the name.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by LowwerWay
                      Use hooks.
                      Hmmmmm. That's like the worst advice anybody could give, y'know...........

                      Comment


                        #12
                        No not at all. Unless, you have no clue what you are talking about.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Dr. Leung Ting, "Wing Tsun Keun", 1978, has mention of "dissolving and countering the oppenents grappling-hand attacks" with heun sau, pg. 129, as well as other specifics aimed at stopping being grabbed or taken down. Its not new. only the training programs Sifu Boztepe put together are.

                          Originally posted by ChickenBeakFist
                          I searched the forums and can't pin down where this whole Wing Chun "anti-grapple" meme started up. I've recently read three books about Wing Chun from different time periods ('60s, '80s, '00s) and nowhere did I find any mention of grappling, "anti-grappling", or anything much having to do with "grappling."
                          WT (anti) Grappling is a training set to develop the techniques one would need to prevent a grapplers game and continue with your striking. It was created in the 1980's and implimented in the 1990's, since the Gracie Family wrote a letter to us saying they planned to storm all our gyms and beat up all the instructors infront of the students.

                          The entire concept of _ing _un can be boiled down to preventing grabs so you can keep striking, so only the term is new. The training sets are to actually do "chi Sau" in grappling positions, because before it was just assumed if you followed the principles it would work. The training just puts the principles into senerios to face a new threat.


                          Originally posted by ChickenBeakFist
                          From the EBMAS Website (http://www.ebmas.net/europa/home.php)


                          Since it appears that the majority of this site is dedicated to Sifu Emin masturbatory aides and includes about a half-dozen other Bullshido red flags I will thank you kindly for bringing it to my attention, take the information contained under advisement, and walk away with a better understanding of why people mock Wing Chun. I, however remain undaunted in my quest...
                          I do not do EBMAS so I can enjoy the website.

                          Grappling was generally termed wrestling before UFC populerized the "grapple" concept.

                          As far as I know WT coined the term anti-grapple. It stems from the concept of "never box a boxer and never wrestle a wrestler." You can not beat people at their own game, they have better skills there. You must prevent it and maximize the parts of your own game they do not practice. This is why BJJ dominated untill the secret was out.

                          Anti-Grappling is meant to keep the WT from thinking he is gonna ever match a grappler at his game, but instead to practice preventing it and to contunue striking or stand back up.

                          example: we practice armbar escape more then arm bar itself. We wont do armbar, that postion is for head kicking or knee dropps.

                          we do side mount with a double knee drop/ kick to head but do keep our feet on the floor so we can stand up quickly or head stomp. We don't do full mount on purpose because it prevents mobility(sole of foot leaves floor) and is the grapplers bread and butter. Why go into his game and get bumbed into rear naked choke or triangle?

                          it may be crappling by a grapplers standards. I am just explaining the concept.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

                            example: we practice armbar escape more then arm bar itself. We wont do armbar, that postion is for head kicking or knee dropps.

                            we do side mount with a double knee drop/ kick to head but do keep our feet on the floor so we can stand up quickly or head stomp. We don't do full mount on purpose because it prevents mobility(sole of foot leaves floor) and is the grapplers bread and butter. Why go into his game and get bumbed into rear naked choke or triangle?

                            it may be crappling by a grapplers standards. I am just explaining the concept.
                            That's the thing though, no good armbar = no good armbar escape. It's crappling by anyone's standard.

                            Edit: Will do almost anything for video footage of that.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by It is Fake
                              No not at all. Unless, you have no clue what you are talking about.
                              I do have a clue what I'm talking about, but you're advocating something really stupid. Wing Chun attacks in a straight line. Anything traveling in a straight line will reach the target before something travelling in a circular motion, as it has to travel a shorter distance. If you always throw hooks at a wing chun guy, he's just going to destroy you down your centerline, if he's any good.

                              Em

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