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    Progressive Martial Art Thinkers/Just The Facts... merged

    Yang Fukui is a member of the Yang family who grew up studying several different forms of CMA, including (of course) Yang taiji, Hebei Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, and a bunch of traditional externals (including Baji). He went on to win various contents in China, including Yang tui shou and open san shou matches. On the other hand, he also learned a load of modern wushu to get work as a wushu coach.

    I've not had my hands on him, but everyone I know who has done comes back saying he's the real deal. The notes here are taken from an interview printed in T'ai Chi magazine (Vol. 24, No. 5), which I found hereBob Feldman:Yang Fukui: It was quite different. Traditionally, we do not train by long sequences of forms. We concentrate more on developing gongfu [...]

    BF: How did they practice then?

    YF:BF: How are push ands and fighting different?

    YF:BF: In the traditional way of practice, how did the earlier Yang masters practice the forms to enhance their fighting skills?

    YF: First of all, they would initially practice slowly and softly, but they would also practice the forms and sequences with speed and explosive power. The kicks and punches would also be done at full speed, but the kicks are internally generated by utilizing the power of the whole body.

    BF: What other kinds of basics did they practice traditionally besides forms and push hands?

    YF: As in any Chinese martial art, one has to develop adequate flexibility through stretching. This is often not appreciated by many people in the West who learn Taiji. Although Taijiquan Taolu will help you obtain better flexibility, if you study Taijiquan as a martial art, it is required. After one gains adequate flexibility, one can start training the muscles, tendons, ligaments, and bones for strength and rooting. This is done by practicing in lower stances and using special weights, the long staff, and the Taiji ball [4].

    BF: Can you further discuss the Taiji ball and other training aids that are used in traditional Yang style Taiji?

    YF: First, we use a heavy cube-shaped weight. It is used for certain simple exercises to help strengthen the bones, tendons, muscles, and ligaments. It is usually done in a low posture.

    Next we progress to the Taiji ball, which is more advanced, as it incorporates circular and spiraling movements while holding the ball in a variety of exercises. It is also done in low postures and can vary in weight from light to heavy (usually between 2.5 to 10 kilograms / 5.5 to 22 pounds), as your root deepens and you become stronger[5].

    BF: When did you start to practice Taiji fighting?

    YF: I had become accomplished in push hands by the age of 18, having pushed a lot with my grandfather, father, older brother, and their advanced students. I later even won a national championship competition in Weihua City, Shandong Province, in 1984 in the middleweight division of Yang style push hands. [...]

    Of course, one gains fighting experience mainly by fightingpush hands is not all there is to fighting. Most Taijiquan fighting utilizes close fighting methods, but in push hands we still have to adhere to some form, which is the basis for our movement. Fighting is much more free and without forms.

    BF: What if one fights with an opponent is not trained in Taiji?

    YF:BF: How important are the kicks and punches that one practices in the forms?

    YF: In the forms, one practices the kicks and punches very slowly, but when we use them, we use very fast moves. Kicks and punches in a fight and in the forms are different. For example, although a kick may be high in the form, the kicks in fighting are usually low kicks.

    BF: In the West, many books have been written suggesting that the Yang family possesses two separate methods of training and there are two separate Tao Lu, one "outdoor" for the public, and a second "indoor" for the family. Is this true?

    YF: This is true, but probably not in the way you think. [...] our so-called "Family Taolu" is really the method by which we train, not a series of secret forms. It is rather the ability to take each form or a series of several forms, and utilize them effectively. This is traditional Yang Taiji training. You will recall that the Taolu did not develop substantially until the 3rd generation. The Taolu created by Yang Cheng-fu and others are good for health and conditioning but are not that meaningful for fighting as the training methods we have discussed: the ball, weight, staff training, and push hands.

    BF:YF:

    #2
    Yes, see he speaks heresy. Notice, he says everything us non-conformists have been saying for years.

    No. I'm not trying to take anythign away from the guy. It's just funny that real masters say the exact opposite of "Grand Masters."

    My old school said forms were the most important aspect of kung fu. Yet, all the books THEY recommended said the exact opposite.

    Here is a guy that follows my belief. One form contains everything you need and you practice pieces (drilling).

    Great article.

    Comment


      #3
      Exactly. there is a video of chen style push hands. It looks like greoc and had some good throws. Very enlightening. i have always though tai chi was cool but after I was fighting competitively, I saw that it had TONS of fighting in it.

      Comment


        #4
        This is a great article. Push hands is definetly a transition tool/drill. It so often seems to be the end all of training. My sifu spends way to much time on forms, he's into the health aspect but still more than willing to push me around. Thanks for the article.
        Last edited by Kubili; 7/30/2007 6:37pm, .

        Comment


          #5
          Fighting is interesting. The thing is you have to do it to get good at it.

          I know a small handful of great wing chun fighters. Fucking tough guys. But they were tough guys before they trained wing chun...and they would be tough guys if they never trained wing chun, and instead trained karate, or some other martial art. Or didn't train anything at all. They are just tough.

          Generally speaking, in my experiences, wing chun does not produce tough guys out of nothing. You can have the best technique in the world, but if you are not tough, and only training hard can make you tough, you have a really good chance of getting your ass kicked.

          Getting slapped on the forearm or banged on the shin doesn't really make you tough. It can make you hard, but tough is mental as much as it is physical.

          For the past 13 months, I've been training at a Royce Gracie BJJ school w/ an MMA team. I've trained with a lot of guys who are tough. The art of BJJ (or MT) doesn't necessarily make them tough, the way they train makes them tough. They train to fight. They know they are going to fight, they know people are going to try to beat them, and they train for it. They come in on their days off to fight. When class is over, they stay and fight. When one of their training partners is getting ready for a fight, the rest of them line up to train him to fight. See the trend?

          I disagree w/ the idea that training striking drills in wing chun is (in regards to "reality" of training) the same as rolling or wrestling up to submitting. Two people can "fight" at 100% strength and speed in bjj, up until submission. In striking, you can't throw a punch as hard or fast as you can in drills, or with feints and misdirection...that's just not how most drills work.

          If you trained bjj at 3/4's speed for one year, and then went to a tournament, you would get crushed because your ass is moving too slow.

          Same with wing chun. The vast majority of the time it is trained at 3/4'rs speed, thus, when you have to use it in a fight, you're fucked. The way it is trained by the VAST majority of people who train it is unrealistic, and not functional against a trained or really tough opponent.

          Wing Chun striking drills are not random, are often predictable and follow set patterns, and are very rarely done at full speed. Sparring in wing chun is typically reserved for "senior students," and even then is rarely at 100% effort.

          In order to make a striking art work, you have to train it at full speed, to develop the power and reflexes to work at full speed (see boxing for reference).

          For this reason, I would like to propose that all wing chun schools devote the last 1/2 hour of class to full contact sparring.

          Spend whatever class time you think necessary for forms, power training, techniques, and drills, but make sure that every day you allow 1/2 hour at the end for sparring. If you are worried about losing students, make it optional. Let people who don't want to get kicked and punched leave. They will pay your rent, but will never be able to fight.

          If you ever want wing chun to be taken seriously, then stop propagating some bullshit idea of training and force people to train to fight. Train people to be tough.


          Those of you who are students, don't settle for half-ass training. If you like your school, even though they don't spar much, go find other ways outside of your school to practice fighting. Get together w/ your buddies and beat the shit out of each other. Learn how to take a punch. Learn that getting punched sucks (but still sometimes feels good). Learn what it means to keep fighting when you are hurt and want to quit.

          Just learn how to fucking fight.
          Our resident Southpaw. In this thread.

          http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58215

          Comment


            #6
            From this thread:
            http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=47459

            Comment


              #7
              This guys name is David A Ross I presume from the links that he gave at the bottom of his post. His school doesn't look half bad, mixing CMA with BJJ, how scandalous!

              www.NYSanDa.com
              www.SanDa-MMA.com
              www.LamaKungFu.org
              www.SanDaTrainingSystems.com

              Comment


                #8
                Yes, I know. I was waiting for his approval before, I posted his links.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by EmetShamash
                  This guys name is David A Ross I presume from the links that he gave at the bottom of his post. His school doesn't look half bad, mixing CMA with BJJ, how scandalous!

                  www.NYSanDa.com
                  www.SanDa-MMA.com
                  www.LamaKungFu.org
                  www.SanDaTrainingSystems.com
                  You presume correctly :)

                  and I am quite the scoundrel LOL :)

                  I had no issue with cross posting this, glad a few enjoyed it

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by lkfmdc
                    You presume correctly :)

                    and I am quite the scoundrel LOL :)

                    I had no issue with cross posting this, glad a few enjoyed it
                    Thanks for the permission.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by It is Fake
                      Thanks for the permission.
                      my pleasure, be well!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        A LOT of the techniques in the forms are NOT strikes or blocks, they are clinching and throwing movements, which we also train ALL THE TIME
                        Im glad that youve said this and that you are a teacher. I found that theres alot of resistance to this notion in general. Leaving me very pessimistic about kungfu in general.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          There are many teachers and ex teachers that think this way in here.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Thats good to know. The resistance i met mostly was on other forums and in real life, not here specifically. Arguably though, i presented the notion so badly because at the time i basically sucked, so i got what i deserved.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by It is Fake
                              There are many teachers and ex teachers that think this way in here.
                              And many idiots that don't.

                              Comment

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