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    Thanks but as I always say thank Jack for the first article that led to the idea. I personally get tired of the " well look at IIF" he thinks he knows everything. No. I don't but I have a ton of experience that is backed up by people who we all respect.

    Jack isn't an asshole like me but, he still ends up in discussions of "but why train kung fu, it is outdated."

    These are well established Kung fu and karate teachers. They are also posters that train different st6yles that have very similar mindsets. That is my main point with these articles. Sparring is necessary and kata=/=fighting among a few other things.

    Oh and my favorite you don't learn how to fight from doing a form extra slow (20 minute Tai Chi forms).


      Nice recent post from an Instructor who posts on this board.
      Last edited by It is Fake; 11/26/2008 1:03pm, .


        saving this - :)


          Here is a little exchange about forms and sparring from Tim Cartmell again.

          Students learn about alignment and basic movement skills from the first day of class. They also start some non-cooperative sparring drills within the first week or two of training. Some students (with a little background) start sparring in a limited format the first or second class.

          You could practice forms for a million years and you will never know if you are doing them with any degree of proficiency until you try to use the skills in sparring. The very idea of forms is to develop the attributes useful to fighting. How can you test the degree of development obtained from forms training? By fighting (or sparring realistically). Otherwise, you are only dancing.

          Think about how you acquired any other physical/athletic skill. How did you learn to ride a bike? Did you practice the "bike riding form" without a bike for several years to perfect your "form" before you ever sat on a bike, or did your dad give you some pointers and then let you try and ride? You fall down, you learn from the error, and you try again. In a short amount of time, you can ride. You cannot correct your performance until you actually try and perform. Without realistic practice (which includes making mistakes) you will have nothing to base your training on.

          The idea that you need to master "forms" before you can begin to actually practice a specific sport or skill would be considered ridiculous in any other physical endeavor (except "martial arts"). Imagine people who really need to know how to fight, soldiers for example. If you used the "perfect forms first" model of training, boot camp would last 30 years instead of three months.

          If I hear a teacher forbidding live practice (realistic, non-cooperative practice and contact sparring) until the student has trained for months or years, my first thought is the teacher doesn't know how to fight himself, or he doesn't know how to teach others how to fight, or, he is simply marketing (dribbling out information as slow as possible to keep students on the hook).

          All fighters practice conditioning. For example, stance keeping (Zhan Zhuang) IS isometrics. Tensing your muscles inappropriately makes you stiffer, not exercising.

          [another response to a post]
          Our theory is that you learn forms and solo drills in the academy, but you practice them at home. There is no need to pay a teacher to watch you practice forms once you know them. So when you come to class, most of the time is spent on drilling or sparring with a partner.

          My classes are broken down basically into one third of the time doing forms or conditioning, one third on technique practice and drills with a partner and one third sparring.

          [another response to a post]
          Alot depends on the individual student, but, in general, sparring is introduced to beginners in rather specific and limited formats. I agree that having a new student glove up and spar full contact with few rules usually isn't the best training method (although you can learn alot about yourself in such situations).

          If you reduce the variables to a limited area of focus, students will be able to concentrate on developing specific skills in a non-cooperative format, without feeling undue pressure. Making mistakes is a natural part of the learning process. The teachers job is to provide feedback, and present corrective methods of practice afterward (most often in a less stressful, more structured environment) so the student can work to correct flaws and improve performance. The more proficient a student becomes, the freer the practice can be.

          It is impossible to correct a student that is never given the opportunity to make mistakes.
          I guess you can say I'm searching for thing to support my argument. Thing is he blows all the Bias against "non-Asian" CMAers apart. He trained in China, Competed in hard/full contact, learned forms, learned about chi, he is about as classical, traditional, or whatever you want to deem him and he still says everything a sport fighter would say.

          That's why I get perturbed at the whole to "deadly vs sport" bullshit.

          If anyone wonders why I don't have an Omega post in here it's because, he has a thread that is good enough in the CMA forum already.
          Last edited by It is Fake; 12/23/2008 2:17pm, .


            At the risk of turning this into the Tim Cartmell appeciation thread, there's this:

            Karl-Heinz: How long needs a student in your school to be prepared for competition?

            Tim: Most of my students will begin to compete in BJJ and submission wrestling tournaments after about six months of training.

            Karl-Heinz: Which of your students are sucessfull in competition and which titles have they won?

            Tim: I have a large number of students that have been successful in grappling and MMA tournaments. Most recently one of my young students won the California State Pankration Championships in both the light-heavy and heavyweight divisions on the same day. Other of my students have won the BJJ Pan-American Championships, the Copa Pacifica de Jiu Jitsu, the BJJ California State Chapionships among other titles.
            ... remember, it takes ten years to be able to fight with IMA!


              Originally posted by Jack Skellington

              ... remember, it takes ten years to be able to fight with IMA!
              I really wish the internet had this info in the beginning. I owuld have saved about 6-7 years of McDojo training.


                Hwa Rang Do counts as IMA?!?


                  Omega has too many damn posts:
                  Kung-fu in MMA....This is how I got here. - No BS Martial Arts

                  So, here is his thread detailing his art and musings.


                    Originally posted by It is Fake
                    Omega has too many damn posts:

                    So, here is his thread detailing his art and musings.
                    Interesting read. That early NHB thing in the warehouse sounds like something Jeremy Horn once described. Have any of you every checked out his MacKwoon? It'd be interesting to see how they train.
                    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie

                    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                    Luta Livre flees the fight,
                    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!


                      Well, I finally got around to reading this entire thread, and all I can say is that I'm very glad I did. Page after page of good, solid information. Good stuff.

                      Also, that Jack Dempsey book was amazing. Worth reading several times over.


                        One more Tim Quote until, Jack Gets back.

                        Originally posted by Tim Cartmell
                        Both of my primary Yang style teachers advocated sparring. There were two basic formats. One method was a free method of "push hands" sparring that started at contact and allowed pushes, pulls, sweeps, throws and takedowns and chin na techniques. The other method was regular "sparring," starting from a distance with all of the above techniques allowed including blows (we kept head contact light).

                        My belief is it is virtually impossible to learn how to apply your techniques for real without non-cooperative sparring (no matter what style you practice).
                        I found this funny because peoplesoft went off on the Judo recommendations in another thread.
                        Someone questioning the no sparring contained in their Tai Chi practice.
                        Hi Tobias,
                        I would suggest looking into Judo for some practical self defense training (there will be plenty of sparring). The principles of Judo are virtually the same as those of Taijiquan.


                          Pay Attention Or Get Pounded--Your Choice - No BS Martial Arts
                          Originally posted by Vieux Normand View Post
                          Okay, I'm putting this in JMA, as the subject tends to come up here with painful regularity. Mods can move it to Sociopath or whatever it's called if they see fit.

                          I'll call it the "BSD Zen Pattern". One of many which show up on this forum--initiated by the usual ignoroids--that maybe one shouldn't give a shit about, but (maybe it's sleep deprivation) this one just pissed me off at the wrong time.

                          What's the pattern?

                          1) Ignorrhoid signs up, spouts some ignoroid brilliance (and, really, it could be about anything).

                          2) Errant, reading aforementioned spouting of genius, replies with a very-justifiable "Shut the fuck up" or something similar...and similarly-deserved.

                          3) Ignorrhoid, reading Errant's tags, responds with a knee-jerk spewing of something like: "How can you call yourself a professional Buddhist and Zen teacher when you've said such mean and hurtful things?"

                          Why does this pattern manifest itself, time and again?

                          On every university campus in the Western world, there exists a creature so stereotypical that he's almost a mythic archetype. No name doing this apparition justice, a brief description must suffice:

                          1) The face is pasty, chinless and unblemished by mark of effort or scar.

                          2) The expression is a constant, dreamily-beatific gaze into eternity.

                          3) The pony-tail is a very neat counterbalance to the specs.

                          4) The neck in front of the pony-tail is much thinner than the pony-tail.

                          5) Even thinner than the neck are the insect-like arms.

                          6) They end in smooth, unmarked hands as pasty as the face.

                          7) The smile is of one who has read all and therefore knows all.

                          8) He has travelled nowhere, unless there's a nice hotel.

                          9) He stayed in the hotel, and therefore really didn't travel.

                          Now this creature has decdided that he understands Zen. He imparts his vast knowledge to any and every undergrad who will listen and worship.

                          All is quiet and mild in Zen, he says. (Undergrads nod placidly.)

                          No effort is required, as such would Unbalance Things. (The Assembled nod again).

                          Gentle loving-kindness means that voice and fists are never raised. (Those Present Feel The Peace).

                          Blah-blah-buddha-blah-blah-karma-blah-blah-enlightenment. (The audience is Ready to Embark on the Docile Journey).

                          Fucking idiots, one and all. The seller and the buyers both. As soon as I see you, you're headed for the ER. Not because I'm a Zen teacher (I'm not). Not because I'll impart something to you with my battered and scarred knuckles (I won't). It'll be because there's a remote chance you'll sustain enough neural damage that you'll wake up as somebody else...and I owe it to humanity to improve anything--what the fuck, who am I kidding, it'll happen because you pencil-necked little pseudo-Zen hippy-creeps are just asking for it. You know the "protective impulse"? Well, your very presence on this planet triggers the exact opposite. Fuck you.

                          Want Zen? Assuming that's not a contradiction, why the fuck would you want to learn it from a spaghetti-armed neo-hippy? Go to the source. You'll find, in Japan or anywhere Zen has a history, that what you thought you knew amounts to a steaming pile of matter most vile.

                          Go. There are lots of temples where you'll get told, served, whacked with sticks, punched, your ass worked to the bone by monks as callous as they are callused. "You want 'Eastern philosophy'? GET TO WORK!" Your job is to pay attention. Pay attention, pay attention, pay attention...and if it takes a right cross to the jaw to get you there, thet's what you'll get.

                          For those who have been to such a place (my wife's family has me attend the Soto-Shu temple near their residence every time I go to Japan), the link between Zen and MA is obvious. That's why so many temples have MA as part of their training: nothing gets you to pay attention, nothing keeps you mind from wandering of to la-la land, like an adversary who's intent on laying a beating on your sorry ass. If you can't keep focus, you'll be spitting teeth. The military implications are obvious: who would be easier for an attacker to get the jump on: the sentinel who is always focussed on where he is and what he's doing...or the fucking daydreamer? Right. It is transferable to a number of occupations: I can't, for example, afford to let myself be lulled by the hours of ultra-repetitive dance-floor crap that I hear at work. The lighting is poor enough as it is, my eyesight is that of a nearly-fifty-year-old, and the volume of the speakers makes hearing radio-calls dubious enough at the best of times. If I fail to keep focus, something might well get out of hand that I could have prevented with proper vigilance.

                          As for what Zen teachers are "supposed to do or not do", there are many historical examples of direct-teaching in Zen, if looking things up is what you're into. As Inzan said, centuries ago, about one of his more promising students:

                          "...there are many gates for her to pass through.
                          She should receive still more blows from my iron fist".

                          Why waste time on words if the fist, or the stick, teaches better?

                          If words are chosen, why waste time being "nice" to a fucking idiot? Just call him a fucking idiot. For the nun Eshun, about to die by her choice on a pyre, the last words to a monk who had asked her if it was hot was to answer: "Only an idiot like you would concern himself with a question like that." When a daimyo--a feudal lord in Japan--visited two Zen teachers, one called him "wise, with an inborn ability to learn Zen". The other said: "Why do you flatter this imbecile? He's a daimyo, all well and good, but he knows nothing about Zen." This latter became the daimyo's teacher.

                          So, yeah, Zen teachers may well insult you, work you to the bone, hit you with sticks, shout verbal abuse at you, and punch the shit out of you.

                          And when the shit's been punched out of you, you might just find that you're far better-off without it.

                          Besides, when you're "mindful", you do a much more efficient job of scrunching campus-Zen-flake down to suitable size for the compost-mulcher. He might as well be useful for something...


                            How did I miss that?
                            Oh how I love thee...


                              It is in the JMA forum. I reported the post so it can become an article.


                                Zen training sounds a lot like the Marine Corps boot camp training I had way back when.

                                Boot caught looking at DI

                                Do you like me private? Do you think I am pretty? You know that liking leads to loving and loving leads to fucking. Do you want to fuck me private?

                                Private at this point is screwed and prepares to take his beating.

                                Several DI's are roaming the squad bay making sure the other privates have the appropriate thousand yard stare and are not eye balling the beating yet are still paying attention to the slightest utterance of any of the drill instructors.

                                Gung Ho! Gung Ho! Gung Ho!



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