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Is Push Hands(really different then ChiSau in the long run?

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    #61
    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    So the real tai chi does not have a circular moving drill with the arms pushing together and movement being done from the trunk only?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eM1-3ew28

    ... although there's a very large skill disparity between these two, which makes it look more compliant than it is (the big guy is trying to resist, he just can't).

    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    I am reading that Push Hands is the big term for all tai chi partner practice? while chi sau is just one of the many partner practice types in the chun?
    Push hands (tui shou) goes through a series of stages that eventually blur into another practice called san shou ("free hand" or "free fighting"), which is a kind of everything goes sparring. The closest parallel I could give you is that tui shou is like chi sau while san shou is kind of like lat sau, only more so.

    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Also, they way I read you guys, it borderlines on not having any alive resistance, since that would be "winning" or "trying to prevent winning".
    Okay, now I have to accuse you of being intentionally obtuse.

    Aliveness: the other guy doesn't let you do what you're trying to do, and is, in fact, trying to do something to you at the same time. Chi sau, for instance, is an alive drive for teaching a student how to slap-fight. A slap-fighting form or compliant slap-fighting drills would not work as well for that purpose.

    The problem with competition in the sense we're discussing is that it ultimately distorts the activity in question by shaping the practice toward the most effective means of winning the drill rather than the most effective means of improving the skill set the drill is meant to inculcate. Some examples: judo's short time limit on ne-waza warped judo away from martial practice by encouraging the lethal turtle technique; the "no face" rule in kyokushin sparring teaches students not to block the head; freestyle wrestling's lack of submissions leads wrestlers to give up chokes too easily; &c.

    I really don't have the space in my life to continue this conversation. I wish you good training, and I hope you will arrange to do some full-contact sparring with a few experienced fighters from a Muay Thai or San Da background as a means of assessing your development. For instance, Cung Le's San Shou Academy

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by It is Fake
      I've also seen some that look like the pummeling vid.
      I think most CMA, and especially taiji, is easier to understand when it's viewed in the cultural context in which it developed. For example, shuai jiao is more popular in China than Collegiate Wrestling is here, and it has a history that stretches back into antiquity. So, of course, if everyone grows up playing a game that looks like this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjmnMaCk2Y

      ... they are going to have a much easier time understanding the purpose of drills like push hands, and are much less likely to get sucked into some kind of hippy-dippy bullshido.

      Pummeling is great. We did it for freestyle wrestling when I was a boy, and we did it last night at BJJ practice. As for the relative merits of these two drills, I think they're both quite useful if practiced properly.

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by jackrusher
        Push hands comps are a bad idea all around, but the American comps are particularly divorced from the martial nature of the exercise. The film here does a nice job of outlining the differences between American and Chinese competitions:

        http://pushingtheissue.com/

        ... though it does little to address the foolishness of distorting a drill in this manner.
        Wow, I had no idea most push hands competitions were so limited. The only one of those rules I'm used to playing under is the rule against hooking the back. No excessive force? Tai chi chuan is not about avoiding the use of force, its about the intelligent use of force. Without using force, how are you representing genuine resistance? No throws? Most TCC applications as I've learned them are throws and their setups.

        I'm not fundamentally against the idea of push hands divisions at tournaments, but specializing in tournament play should not be the focus of training. This is especially true with the weird limited rule structure. When we are training for a tournament, we go into "tournament mode" where we try to immediately go forpoints as fast as possible right after circling. I think this is good occasionally, but this is not where the learning happens.

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by CodosDePiedra
          Without using force, how are you representing genuine resistance?
          Bingo. I think the "no force" mentality of the American tournament scene is a result of the hippy-dippy "magical powers" mindset that's so common among IMA practitioners here. "It's about effortless chi power!" Ugh...

          Originally posted by CodosDePiedra
          I'm not fundamentally against the idea of push hands divisions at tournaments, but specializing in tournament play should not be the focus of training.
          Because so few people fight, the success of students in push hands becomes the big "face" issue for IMA sifus who have no other way to prove that they've taught their students well. Proper training vanishes when this collides with the weird ruleset mentioned above.

          Comment


            #65
            jackrusher, that's a very good short film.

            Interestingly, I don't see much of anything in the Chinese Competitions which I wouldn't allow in ChiSao. (In fact, I have a classmate, Micky Chan, who rather enjoys tossing people instead of striking.)

            As far as whether "competition" is a good or bad development for Tai Chi TsuiSao (and, also, I guess, for Ving Tsun ChiSao), I'd be willing to bet serious money that, if there was a time machine, we would discover the same argument going on when Jigoro Kano used his Judo/Jujitsu Randori as the basis to start showcasing his and others versions of the art by organizing it to fit a Shiai format. It all comes down to whether the rule set for competition is any good - and whether there is any progression to less restrictive formats.

            Edit:

            However, calling a Competitiion "ChiSao" is a bit of a misnomer. In addition to it being a drill, I've been taught that more generally, ChiSao can be translated as "practice." Thus, it would include all Ving Tsun modalities - LookSao, LeiTai ChiSao, TsuiMa ChiSao, ChiSao, ChernKiuSao, SanSao, and ChiGerk. Competition - or "testing", I'd call a MaaiSeungJong (which literally translates as "bring the dummy to life").
            Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/02/2007 4:58pm, .
            Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
            "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

            "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

            My Bullshido fan club threads:
            Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
            Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
            Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
            Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
            Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
            I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
            TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
            ATTN TOM KAGAN
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            Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
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            Comment


              #66
              I don't know if anyone made the distinction, but there's two different types of push hands that are practiced in a tournament format (as I've practiced at least). There's fixed step, where you start with three circles in a bow stance and the feet are not allowed to move, except for one shuffle in either direction, and you achieve points by pushing the person off balace or bringing them to a hand or knee. Then there's moving step, which is where you see them in the ring As I've learned it, points are gained by throwing the person, pushing them out of the ring without going out yourself, or pushing them more than two steps off balance. Hooking the back, strikes, joint locks and reaping/grapevine type throws are illegal.

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by jackrusher
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eM1-3ew28

                ... although there's a very large skill disparity between these two, which makes it look more compliant than it is (the big guy is trying to resist, he just can't).

                Cool clip. Yes the beginning of the drills is what I have been talking about. Are these guys still in tui shou or has it moved/ blured into san shou


                Originally posted by jackrusher
                Push hands (tui shou) goes through a series of stages that eventually blur into another practice called san shou ("free hand" or "free fighting"), which is a kind of everything goes sparring. The closest parallel I could give you is that tui shou is like chi sau while san shou is kind of like lat sau, only more so.
                So "push Hands" should really be only Tui Shou before it becomes free hand work. I agree, and I have been only comparing the starting points Poon Sau in WT, which comes after single arm drills with stepping and turns.


                Originally posted by jackrusher
                The problem with competition ........
                exactly. Competition is only good if you can continue training without modifying to fit the test. When you train for the test it stops being a good test.


                Originally posted by jackrusher
                I really don't have the space in my life to continue this conversation. I wish you good training, and I hope you will arrange to do some full-contact sparring with a few experienced fighters from a Muay Thai or San Da background as a means of assessing your development.
                I do it and have done it every couple of years or so. Judo is next on my list.



                Originally posted by Tom Kagan
                However, calling a Competitiion "ChiSao" is a bit of a misnomer. In addition to it being a drill, I've been taught that more generally, ChiSao can be translated as "practice." Thus, it would include all Ving Tsun modalities - LookSao, LeiTai ChiSao, TsuiMa ChiSao, ChiSao, ChernKiuSao, SanSao, and ChiGerk. Competition - or "testing", I'd call a MaaiSeungJong (which literally translates as "bring the dummy to life").

                Cool, So basically then Push hands means All of tai chi practice and Chi Sau means all of _ing __un practice. Tai Chi in not Wing Whatever, so they are in fact different excersises.

                Push hands is different then Chi Sau.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu





                  Cool, So basically then Push hands means All of tai chi practice and Chi Sau means all of _ing __un practice. Tai Chi in not Wing Whatever, so they are in fact different excersises.
                  No.



                  Push hands is different then Chi Sau.
                  No.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
                    Cool clip. Yes the beginning of the drills is what I have been talking about. Are these guys still in tui shou or has it moved/ blured into san shou?
                    It's still tui shoutui shou and san shouchi sau/lat sau line for chunners.

                    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
                    Push hands =/= Chi Sau.
                    I'm reading this as a desire to make an ontological assertion of the form "push hands is a sensitivity drill with sticking, strikes and throws used to drill taiji principles, while chi sau is a sensitivity drill with sticking, strikes and throws used to drill chun principles, thus they are different drills." While no one here will claim that push hands teaches chun principles or that chi sau teaches taiji principles, this assertion is what a logician would call "trivially true," which is to say that it's both obvious and pointless.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by jackrusher



                      I'm reading this as a desire to make an ontological assertion of the form "push hands is a sensitivity drill with sticking, strikes and throws used to drill taiji principles, while chi sau is a sensitivity drill with sticking, strikes and throws used to drill chun principles, thus they are different drills." While no one here will claim that push hands teaches chun principles or that chi sau teaches taiji principles, this assertion is what a logician would call "trivially true," which is to say that it's both obvious and pointless.
                      Thank you. Nowhere have any of us said Tai Chi=WC. There is a particular drill that is very similar.

                      Let me say it again Push Hands and Chi Sau try to do the exact same thing. They are similar.

                      Tom made fun of me so I'm going to show you how ridiculious this discussion is now. This is why JR said you are being obtuse
                      Pushhands looks like it is a bigger system in the beginning and Chi Sau seems to be a "lesser" or smaller isolated set of Push Hands. This is incorrect. They both merge to share the others aspects in the advanced programs.
                      Finally, we finish here.
                      Push hands is different then Chi Sau.
                      So, I'm officially done unless someone reports a post. Before you say well after listening I changed my mind you didn't.

                      I'm to lazy today to go through and quote everything but people said why they didn't like the Chi Sau.

                      You answered by correcting everyone how Chi Sau does this like push hands it does that like pushands.

                      When you saw the similarities, you suddenly switched to well I was talking about basics. Funny thing is, when Jack broke down the basics, you said you start similarly in the chun.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by It is Fake
                        Tom made fun of me so I'm going to show you how ridiculious this discussion is now.
                        I wasn't making fun of you. I was underscoring how awesome you are to the point of making me laugh when you decide the latch on and clobber someone's arguments. :smile:


                        Anyway, the real problem, I think is that there are decent examples of Tai Chi TsuiSao available for people to review. Most of the examples available of ChiSao, however, are somewhat less than stellar. So, when someone says something about how ChiSao is more static or that Tai Chi does this or that better, I understand completely where that person is coming from.

                        I, myself, look at many video examples of ChiSao and can't help but think that, somewhere along the line, a person quit practicing and progressing. Thus, they were left with an incomplete 'toolkit' which either they filled in with whatever they found elsewhere, or made due trying to use something for other than what it was meant for - with differing degrees of success.

                        I look at a lot of what people call ChiSao and think to myself this is an example of preliminary movements - baby steps; "Where's the rest of it?" As an analogy, it's as if there are tons of videos labeled labeled 'pummeling' and instead we see endless streams of people practicing only the hand swimming portion.


                        But, then you come across one of the rare videos like the one below. I think even the harshest critic of both arts can see the similarities between what I consider at least halfway decent Tai Chi TsuiSao and halfway decent Ving Tsun ChiSao.

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWUIv_pVRTQ


                        NOTE: The video is actually labeled as a MaiSeungJong. I think that has to do with them playing to a strength (competition) instead of working to improve a weakness (practice). Regardless, I don't see anything in the above video which would fall outside of the rules of ChiSao as I understand it. The entire video also not in 'realtime'. Each clip is slowed down at least a bit.



                        (Disclaimer: Yes, the video is one of my classmate's students. Still, I've seen other ChiSao videos which I would also consider decent examples which were not from Moy Yat lineage. I just couldn't find them in the 2 second search I just did. Also, before anyone points out the gentleman in the video has Sambo training, the above video was filmed before he had extensive training in any 'grappling'.)
                        Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/03/2007 11:11am, .
                        Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
                        "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

                        "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

                        My Bullshido fan club threads:
                        Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
                        Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
                        Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
                        Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
                        Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
                        I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
                        TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
                        ATTN TOM KAGAN
                        World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
                        Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
                        I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
                        Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Oh I know Tom I actually thought it was funny.
                          :love3:

                          That is a great video. Why apologize for using your experience? That's what DTT is doing to prove his point with his videos.




                          *Disclaimer*
                          This whole discussion and my points do not, in anyway, absolve anyone from sparring. If you spend more time on forms, drills, and Push Hands/Chi Sau you are fooling yourself.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by It is Fake
                            This whole discussion and my points do not, in anyway, absolve anyone from sparring. If you spend more time on forms, drills, and Push Hands/Chi Sau you are fooling yourself.
                            No doubt. Should we have a thread somewhere here that discusses the proper role of these sorts of drills in one's martial development? I think of them as a framework within which to become comfortable with new techniques and different body mechanics without receiving a full power beat down. The Formosa Neijia has a few words about this idea here (though his example video has the look of grab-ass and the stink of Systema).

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by It is Fake
                              That is a great video. Why apologize for using your experience? That's what DTT is doing to prove his point with his videos.

                              I'm just acknowledging when I say such things that it can appear as if I'm stepping into the typical nutrider territory. I'm not trying to start a lineage war via trolling with "95% of schools are shit but mine does it right". There's too much of this problem in CMA, also.


                              So, in conclusion, it seems I'm not apologizing for my experiences, but more like I'm apologizing for DTT's. :smile:
                              Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
                              "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

                              "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

                              My Bullshido fan club threads:
                              Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
                              Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
                              Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
                              Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
                              Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
                              I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
                              TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
                              ATTN TOM KAGAN
                              World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
                              Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
                              I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
                              Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                I'm starting to think that for a martial arts clip to be good, it must have happy music, while crappy videos must have metal or rap.

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