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Roger Conant's article on Togakure Ryu History

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  • Styygens
    replied
    Originally posted by Evil Solvalou View Post
    You may already know, but there was a thread about that exact topic back in 2007.

    Ninjers claim to have proof Takamatsu's teacher existed! - No BS MMA and Martial Arts
    And it appears that nothing was resolved in that thread either. *sigh*

    Leave a comment:


  • Evil Solvalou
    replied
    Originally posted by Styygens View Post
    I have heard that Toda's grave was found, but I have not been able to verify this. For example, I have seen no pictures of it. I fear it may be a self-perpetuating rumor on the Internet. Can you provide any source for this?
    You may already know, but there was a thread about that exact topic back in 2007.

    Ninjers claim to have proof Takamatsu's teacher existed! - No BS MMA and Martial Arts

    Leave a comment:


  • Styygens
    replied
    Originally posted by Jissenka View Post
    No record of Toda, apparently Toda's grave has been found, so in itself proves Toda existed (though it proves nothing else) also the whole ninja games has been proven as a mistranslation.
    I have heard that Toda's grave was found, but I have not been able to verify this. For example, I have seen no pictures of it. I fear it may be a self-perpetuating rumor on the Internet. Can you provide any source for this?

    Originally posted by Jissenka View Post
    so Either way until actual proof for either side is presented both rely on faith of the person believing the story. just my 2 cents
    Not exactly true. It's not an either or proposition.

    Believing something exists without proof requires faith.

    Denying something is true when objective proof exists is to be wrong.

    Claiming something has not been proven to be true, while the believers are unable to offer objective proof is a statement of current fact, not faith. I will be happy to revise any claims if objective proof is offered. If no verifiable proof of a claim is offered -- especially after repeated efforts and over a significant period of time -- it is not unreasonable to doubt the claim ever had validity. For example, it is not unreasonable to believe the Loch Ness Monster does not exist.

    Please, what is "Jissen Kobudo?"

    Leave a comment:


  • Jissenka
    replied
    Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
    gosh this seems to be a subject that upsets people I do apologise for my bad spelling thats just me I suppose . I certainly no expert on the subject but if you consider things like the relationship between takamatsu and kano jigoro who asked takamatsu to look after look after his little brother for him would a giant of martial arts like him associate with a walter mitty type as seems to be the thread here It brings both masters into disrepute. other students of takamatsu who will of learnt togakure ryu are akimoto fumio{kodokan judo}mifune kyuzo{10th dan kodokan judo}ueno takashi{grand master of asayama ichiden ryu taijutsu bokuden ryu jujutsu}these were all very big names and easy to research allso sato kimbei who was ura soke of tokagure was a personal student of ueshiba morihei god what a bunch of larpers .anyway appolgies for my poor grammer and remember manners are the backbone of martial arts
    Fumio Akimoto was ura soke of togakure Ryu Sato Kinbei sensei never trained in Togakure Ryu he studied (hon tai) takagi yoshin ryu, kukishin Ryu and Gikan Ryu, (his website www.jujutsu.com), also on that site you notice no mention of Aikido or ueshiba, funny that, Ueno takashi sensei didnt learn togakure ryu either.
    Though the original letter seems to be written when the whole bujinkan ryu-ha came under the banner of togakure ryu. He points out that not all the ryu-ha are ninjutsu, hes right I dont think anyone thinks all nine ryu ha are, Not to mention a couple of areas that have since been proven or proven wrong, ie. No record of Toda, apparently Toda's grave has been found, so in itself proves Toda existed (though it proves nothing else) also the whole ninja games has been proven as a mistranslation. Once again everything I have written is not first hand, just as nothing for the other side of the table is first hand either, in fact the article is far more based on what he thinks may have happened without references to fact. so Either way until actual proof for either side is presented both rely on faith of the person believing the story. just my 2 cents

    Leave a comment:


  • nightowl
    replied
    Jigoro Kano knew a lot of martial artists in his day. He was a huge deal in the Japanese (and world) martial arts scene at the time, so if Takamatsu was big into budo I would have no problems accepting that he at least knew the man (maybe Takamatsu even got to call him his street name of 'Jiggy'). That doesn't mean that Kano was Takamatsu's best buddy or that he went out of his way to send students to him (need more proof especially on Mifune plz).

    Leave a comment:


  • Styygens
    replied
    I'm with Blue Negation on this. Ante up the proof, and please understand that "Sensei sez..." is not a viable response on Bullshido.

    You may want to review this stickied thread:
    How to Discuss Koga Ryu/ninjutsu Lineage Claims - No BS MMA and Martial Arts
    While it originally addressed lineage claims, there is so much mythology surrounding any ninjutsu claim, it really serves as a guide to discussing any claims about ninjutsu history. Be prepared to cite sources or name names.

    I think you will find that some of us will agree to certain statements of yours regarding Takamatsu's association with Ueno Takashi, Akimoto Fumio and Sato Kinbei. I have heard and read anecdotes about Takamatsu being invited to teach at the Kodokan, but as far as I know, there is no corroborating proof of this.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blue Negation
    replied
    Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
    gosh this seems to be a subject that upsets people I do apologise for my bad spelling thats just me I suppose . I certainly no expert on the subject but if you consider things like the relationship between takamatsu and kano jigoro who asked takamatsu to look after look after his little brother for him would a giant of martial arts like him associate with a walter mitty type as seems to be the thread here It brings both masters into disrepute. other students of takamatsu who will of learnt togakure ryu are akimoto fumio{kodokan judo}mifune kyuzo{10th dan kodokan judo}ueno takashi{grand master of asayama ichiden ryu taijutsu bokuden ryu jujutsu}these were all very big names and easy to research allso sato kimbei who was ura soke of tokagure was a personal student of ueshiba morihei god what a bunch of larpers .anyway appolgies for my poor grammer and remember manners are the backbone of martial arts
    Where is your proof that Mifune Kyuzo EVER trained with Takamatsu?

    let alone the others.

    Leave a comment:


  • jimbo1970
    replied
    tokagure

    gosh this seems to be a subject that upsets people I do apologise for my bad spelling thats just me I suppose . I certainly no expert on the subject but if you consider things like the relationship between takamatsu and kano jigoro who asked takamatsu to look after look after his little brother for him would a giant of martial arts like him associate with a walter mitty type as seems to be the thread here It brings both masters into disrepute. other students of takamatsu who will of learnt togakure ryu are akimoto fumio{kodokan judo}mifune kyuzo{10th dan kodokan judo}ueno takashi{grand master of asayama ichiden ryu taijutsu bokuden ryu jujutsu}these were all very big names and easy to research allso sato kimbei who was ura soke of tokagure was a personal student of ueshiba morihei god what a bunch of larpers .anyway appolgies for my poor grammer and remember manners are the backbone of martial arts

    Leave a comment:


  • Craig Jenkins
    replied
    I'm all about the lamentations of their women.

    Leave a comment:


  • Styygens
    replied
    Originally posted by slaphappyslim View Post
    Styygens,

    You can not possibly have regarded "jimbo1970's" post as something anyone needs to spend any time whatsoever responding to, could you have? I don't mean to single you out here, because a few others have chimed in also, but holy shit. If jimbo isn't trolling, he's simply deranged. In either case, why spend any time whatsoever quoting and refuting such nonsense? You put a lot of effort into that, so hats off to you.
    You noobs can't have it both ways... When DerAuslander swoops in and leaves some jackass poster with a short and blunt "STFU," some good-hearted noob who has mistaken BS.net for MAP gets upset with him for being rude.

    I try to leave a considered, witty message dissecting the lunacy of a poor post, and I get asked, "Why did you bother?" :ninjafigh

    There are many good reasons to respond to a poor post:

    a.) Sometimes it's all about the LOLs;

    b.) Maybe it was a slow day and this was all I had to work with;

    c.) How else do you think someone goes from 2 posts to over 500 posts?

    d.) Sometimes a shark's gotta feed.

    ...Cimmeria... Conan Ryu... I am so jealous I didn't think of that myself...

    Leave a comment:


  • Styygens
    replied
    Originally posted by Craig Jenkins View Post
    No I think it's Cimmeria - Conan ryu
    And I thought I missed the chance to make a Diarrhea joke!

    Good one. Looks like push ups for me, sir.

    Leave a comment:


  • Craig Jenkins
    replied
    Originally posted by Styygens View Post
    Psst. That's "samurai."
    No I think it's Cimmeria - Conan ryu

    Leave a comment:


  • It is Fake
    replied
    Originally posted by slaphappyslim View Post
    Styygens,

    You can not possibly have regarded "jimbo1970's" post as something anyone needs to spend any time whatsoever responding to, could you have? I don't mean to single you out here, because a few others have chimed in also, but holy shit. If jimbo isn't trolling, he's simply deranged. In either case, why spend any time whatsoever quoting and refuting such nonsense? You put a lot of effort into that, so hats off to you.
    The same reason you just wasted a paragraph asking why.

    Sometimes you encounter something so idiotic you have to respond because, someone out there will believe the BS,.

    Stop....Scientology exists even though the founder admitted it was bullshit.

    Leave a comment:


  • dougguod
    replied
    Originally posted by slaphappyslim View Post
    If jimbo isn't trolling, he's simply deranged. In either case, why spend any time whatsoever quoting and refuting such nonsense?
    Because we've heard all the same stuff from people who aren't, as far as we know, trolls or deranged and we're trying, perhaps in vain, to contain the epidemic of ninjer larpery. A lot of the folks who come here to drop some knowledge on "the real ninjutsu" are so far immersed in the dogma of their 'Kan that they can no longer be saved from themselves (read some Bujinkan threads to see what I mean). Sometimes, though, a youngling can be brought back from the brink of the black pajama madness. :ninja7:

    Leave a comment:


  • slaphappyslim
    replied
    Styygens,

    You can not possibly have regarded "jimbo1970's" post as something anyone needs to spend any time whatsoever responding to, could you have? I don't mean to single you out here, because a few others have chimed in also, but holy shit. If jimbo isn't trolling, he's simply deranged. In either case, why spend any time whatsoever quoting and refuting such nonsense? You put a lot of effort into that, so hats off to you.

    Leave a comment:

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