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Roger Conant's article on Togakure Ryu History

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    #46
    It seems like if Takamatsu had not used that kind of trick lineage things we would have good today a nice jujutsu system but in the name of the money took over and made ninjas.

    If you believe the training unrealistically in your ninjutsu system why do you try so hard to ressurect it? Are you trying Liekuei to find what is 'useful' in ninjutsu and bring it back?

    Comment


      #47
      For the love of whatever you hold holy... Why would you dredge this up after more than two years???

      Comment


        #48
        Two years? I just didn't saw the date o.o

        Comment


          #49
          This one is probably my fault; I linked to this thread in a debate about Buinkan yesterday.

          Comment


            #50
            Yep, and that's how I saw it lol. Damn you should warn that this threat was dead

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by Evil Solvalou View Post
              This one is probably my fault; I linked to this thread in a debate about Buinkan yesterday.
              Oh. I see. Well, you are "Evil" and all. :icon_twis That's different.

              Besides, I am going to go back and read the article in the OP. So it's not a complete waste.

              Comment


                #52
                Newbie perspective here: I completely understand how the resurrection of some of these "dead" threads must become tiresome, but you guys have to relax about it. This is clearly a quite popular and notable site for all things MA, and newbies such as myself are bound to come in and discover stuff for the first time that maybe you talked about three years ago. By its very nature, Bullshido is not a closed community and will continue to expand, so treating it as your own little private club seems a bit silly. At the end of the day, does it really impact your lives if an old bujinkan thread resurfaces? It sure as hell beats having to root through the archives ad infinitum.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Ok, ok... Actually, it was sort of a faux outrage on my part. I'd missed the original article, found it interesting, and was glad to see it. But I am wary when I see a noob necro a Booj thread... It rarely goes well...

                  Comment


                    #54
                    :nobodycar
                    Originally posted by collier View Post
                    Found this on MAP
                    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for....php?p=1232631


                    An excellent article and puts the final nail into the coffin of the ninjers' argument.This is the information Hatsumi and the senior ninjers don't want you to know!
                    very good read this stuff goes way back to the meiji restoration where the new crop of migi/do diciplines where having a pop trad budo ryu as barbaric etc one well known karate master said takamatsu based his martial arts on childhood ninja games until takamatsu challenged him to a match the karate guy sort of faded into the background regarding tokagure this year soke taneamura is showing {note this}the ryu ha for the first time my teachers have been in the budo since before genbukan existed this is new for all of us i was bujinkan round about 1989 i have been researching ninpo since the if not keeping up training its impossible ninpo was is now to a certain degree now secret otherwise it it would not be ninpo most if not all trad ryu have ninjutsu as its top sylabus ie i hold kiragami in kukishin ryu having trained under soke it to has ninjutsu at the top end most of us in the x kan really only train in samuria arts what you seem to miss is the difference between ninpo and ninjutsu following the ninpo way of life makes me a ninja i know absolutley nothing about ninja taticics short of what i read in history books and i have i on very good authority most of it wrong there are still only a very few people
                    who know it keep up the good detective work but look at the difference between ho/po and jutsu

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                      :nobodycar
                      very good read this stuff goes way back to the meiji restoration where the new crop of migi/do diciplines where having a pop trad budo ryu as barbaric etc one well known karate master said takamatsu based his martial arts on childhood ninja games until takamatsu challenged him to a match the karate guy sort of faded into the background regarding tokagure this year soke taneamura is showing {note this}the ryu ha for the first time my teachers have been in the budo since before genbukan existed this is new for all of us i was bujinkan round about 1989 i have been researching ninpo since the if not keeping up training its impossible ninpo was is now to a certain degree now secret otherwise it it would not be ninpo most if not all trad ryu have ninjutsu as its top sylabus ie i hold kiragami in kukishin ryu having trained under soke it to has ninjutsu at the top end most of us in the x kan really only train in samuria arts what you seem to miss is the difference between ninpo and ninjutsu following the ninpo way of life makes me a ninja i know absolutley nothing about ninja taticics short of what i read in history books and i have i on very good authority most of it wrong there are still only a very few people
                      who know it keep up the good detective work but look at the difference between ho/po and jutsu
                      When I see a big wall of text like this I imagine someone reading it really really fast.

                      Then licking their lips and saying "this speed is crap I am getting fuck all off it. Have you got any gum?".

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                        :nobodycar
                        very good read this stuff goes way back to the meiji restoration where the new crop of migi/do diciplines where having a pop trad budo ryu as barbaric etc one well known karate master said takamatsu based his martial arts on childhood ninja games until takamatsu challenged him to a match the karate guy sort of faded into the background regarding tokagure this year soke taneamura is showing {note this}the ryu ha for the first time my teachers have been in the budo since before genbukan existed this is new for all of us i was bujinkan round about 1989 i have been researching ninpo since the if not keeping up training its impossible ninpo was is now to a certain degree now secret otherwise it it would not be ninpo most if not all trad ryu have ninjutsu as its top sylabus ie i hold kiragami in kukishin ryu having trained under soke it to has ninjutsu at the top end most of us in the x kan really only train in samuria arts what you seem to miss is the difference between ninpo and ninjutsu following the ninpo way of life makes me a ninja i know absolutley nothing about ninja taticics short of what i read in history books and i have i on very good authority most of it wrong there are still only a very few people
                        who know it keep up the good detective work but look at the difference between ho/po and jutsu
                        Firstly, kindly use punctuation and paragraphing in your posts. It will make things much easier for everyone involved. I think I generally understand what you were saying, but I cannot be completely sure:
                        • You used to train in the Bujinkan.
                        • You now train in the Genbukan.
                        • You hold rank in Kukishin Ryu, which the article supports as historical.
                        • You spout an anecdote about Takamatsu which does nothing to actually support the lineage of Togakure Ryu.
                        • You bring up the old po vs. jutsu discussion, which has no bearing on historicity.


                        Yes, I understand that ninja were supposed to be secretive and whatnot. I can even give weight to the idea that such secrecy may have led to the lack of documentation to prove historicity. However, what I cannot understand is why you would think that the art's linear heritage could remain unblemished over 900 years when we've seen evidence that it cannot do so over 50 years.

                        Tanemura split from Hatsumi. Stephen Hayes claims that Hatsumi was teaching different techniques in the 80's. This article points out several inconsistencies in training. How does one account for these?

                        Comment


                          #57
                          And here is a perfect example of a noob who necros a post and adds nothing of benefit. Not only will this not end well, it doesn't start well.
                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          :nobodycar
                          very good read this stuff goes way back to the meiji restoration where the new crop of migi/do diciplines where having a pop trad budo ryu
                          I'm naming my next band "pop trad budo ryu." I bet no one else has it if I google that name.

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          as barbaric etc one well known karate master said takamatsu based his martial arts on childhood ninja games until takamatsu challenged him to a match the karate guy sort of faded into the background regarding tokagure
                          What really sold me on the veracity of this story was your reference to "karate guy." Very scholarly. This gives me every reason to believe you.

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          this year soke taneamura is showing {note this}the ryu ha for the first time my teachers have been in the budo since before genbukan existed this is new for all of us i was bujinkan round about 1989 i have been researching
                          You've been researching? Excellent. I can tell your research must be top notch, because you were so busy studying everything about Ninpo that you had to skip your English and grammar lessons. I bet you've got the really good secret knowledge...



                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          ninpo since the if not keeping up training its impossible ninpo was is now to a certain degree now secret otherwise it it would not be ninpo
                          What???

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          most if not all trad ryu have ninjutsu as its top sylabus
                          "Most, if not all, traditional ryu include ninjutsu as inner most secrets of their curricula." (Sorry, I had to translate that...) Really? Are you sure? Have you examined every extant ryuha? Can you cite some sources for this? I mean, their were only hundreds of bugei ryuha.

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          ie i hold kiragami in kukishin ryu
                          Two points here: first, "i.e." doesn't mean what you seem to think it means and does not belong here; second, given your atrocious garbling of the basic rules of English and misuse of English words, how can I be sure that you have any clue what "kiragami" means, let alone believe you have it?

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          having trained under soke
                          Claiming knowledge came from some old guy entitled "soke" always makes spurious facts more convincing.

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          it to has ninjutsu at the top end most of us in the x kan really only train in samuria
                          Psst. That's "samurai."

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          arts what you seem to miss is the difference between ninpo and ninjutsu following the ninpo way of life makes me a ninja
                          Hahahahahahahahahaha... Oh, wait.

                          You're serious.

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          i know absolutley nothing about ninja taticics
                          Not only is it obvious you know nothing about ninja tactics, you have made it clear you know nothing about spelling, or know anything at all really.

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          short of what i read in history books and i have i on very good authority most of it wrong
                          So what is the "real story?" And how do you know the people who whispered in your ear that the history books are wrong are, themselves, correct?

                          Originally posted by jimbo1970 View Post
                          there are still only a very few people
                          who know it keep up the good detective work but look at the difference between ho/po and jutsu
                          You really should lurk more and post less. At least until you gain a better command of the English language (or stop posting drunk), and also get a better understanding of how Bullshido works.

                          Thanks for stopping by the thread. It's been a real pleasure.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Styygens,

                            You can not possibly have regarded "jimbo1970's" post as something anyone needs to spend any time whatsoever responding to, could you have? I don't mean to single you out here, because a few others have chimed in also, but holy shit. If jimbo isn't trolling, he's simply deranged. In either case, why spend any time whatsoever quoting and refuting such nonsense? You put a lot of effort into that, so hats off to you.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by slaphappyslim View Post
                              If jimbo isn't trolling, he's simply deranged. In either case, why spend any time whatsoever quoting and refuting such nonsense?
                              Because we've heard all the same stuff from people who aren't, as far as we know, trolls or deranged and we're trying, perhaps in vain, to contain the epidemic of ninjer larpery. A lot of the folks who come here to drop some knowledge on "the real ninjutsu" are so far immersed in the dogma of their 'Kan that they can no longer be saved from themselves (read some Bujinkan threads to see what I mean). Sometimes, though, a youngling can be brought back from the brink of the black pajama madness. :ninja7:

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by slaphappyslim View Post
                                Styygens,

                                You can not possibly have regarded "jimbo1970's" post as something anyone needs to spend any time whatsoever responding to, could you have? I don't mean to single you out here, because a few others have chimed in also, but holy shit. If jimbo isn't trolling, he's simply deranged. In either case, why spend any time whatsoever quoting and refuting such nonsense? You put a lot of effort into that, so hats off to you.
                                The same reason you just wasted a paragraph asking why.

                                Sometimes you encounter something so idiotic you have to respond because, someone out there will believe the BS,.

                                Stop....Scientology exists even though the founder admitted it was bullshit.

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