Effective Bujinkan Training

[Fitz]

Even though most the chokes are in the Bujinkan Curriculum, My 1st BJJ coach is the one who taught me HOW to use them.

That one line sums up so much of what needs to change in the way people train in the Bujinkan.

[grow_up]

What I meant by principles being the same stand-up as they are on the ground, is the idea of Kamae. A kamae isn't just a physical posture per se, it's a whole lot deeper than that. You can still pull off any kamae on the ground as you can on your feet. I'm quite comfortable with my ground fighting skills, so I'll leave Virus to keep moaning.

With regards to a gyaku being performed, please keep in mind that it is a broad term in itself. Ura/Omote gyaku doesn't always mean to grab the dudes wrist and start twisting. You can just as easily do it using small joint manipulation be it on his hands or feet, or even ura/omote his head using painful points to force him to move in the way you want him to.

[Hedgehogey]

...and many other things all resulting in maiming or death. Ninjutsu isn't about flipping, spinning, or looking pretty. It's not about territorial pissing matches. It is about winning in real combat.

[Rubber Tanto]

O.K. Lets just say that I am open to some suggestions for a while and that I forgot how much the Bujinkan sucks and I am willing to learn how I could do it work. You described some training methods , but these were, well, only training. What kind of principles /tricks you use in order to make taijutsu joint locks to work under pressure? I mean, have you come up with any set ups or core principles that have allowed you to actually "catch" a omote or ura during sparring? How you lead your opponent there and how he reacted? If you have videos even better. Even if you are not a ufc champ as you say, I dont care. As long as I see someone pulling out bujinkan techniques while sparring, it would be intresting. I am not ironic. I am really curious to see if all these things you described indeed result to increase performance in fighting, regardless of your current skills.

Okay Gladius, the best thing I can do I guess is try and keep your request in mind the next time I do some sparring and try and catch something on video for you.
Let me point out as I said a few posts back on this thread that in my dojo we make it quite clear that wrist locks are not something you can just "put on" at will but opportunities you look out for.

Once again I can't speak for other dojos but you make it sound as if all day long we only focu on joint locks as the main engine of the delivery system, when from the way I am taught, the focus is footwork, distance, timing, countering, striking and positioning. As I have said before, it is the tactical side of MY dojo's training that drew me to this bujinkan dojo and not because it was bujinkan, if that makes sense. (in truth I didn't even know it was a bujinkan dojo until I went inside as the sign outside was an old karate sign from the previous tenants).

On the chokes, yes Shin I agree that the chokes I learn seem to be in the syllabus already and have not been addded. I can't complain on this front as Craig is really good at getting them on and forcing a very quick tapout. I have mates who have choked me and it has never been with the same intensity...the bjj guys probably the only ones, but I can't say it was any better...about the same really. Then again, my sensei's training involved sparring and resistance training I believe and perhaps that is the difference.

...and many other things all resulting in maiming or death. Ninjutsu isn't about flipping, spinning, or looking pretty. It's not about territorial pissing matches. It is about winning in real combat.

Well, I don't know why you threw that in. Do you see me saying that shit?
Say something I'll find useful dude...unless you're more interested in trying to sound cool instead of adding something constructive to the discussion...:eusa_clap

[Fitz]

With regards to a gyaku being performed, please keep in mind that it is a broad term in itself. Ura/Omote gyaku doesn't always mean to grab the dudes wrist and start twisting. You can just as easily do it using small joint manipulation be it on his hands or feet, or even ura/omote his head using painful points to force him to move in the way you want him to.

You're incorrectly expanding the meaning of "Ura/Omote gyaku" too broadly and in my mind foolishly to make a point of questionable merit. The other joint manipulations already have names and as such there is no need to re-package "Ura/Omote Gyaku."

[shmuel]

What I meant by principles being the same stand-up as they are on the ground, is the idea of Kamae. A kamae isn't just a physical posture per se, it's a whole lot deeper than that.

Deeper? How?

You can still pull off any kamae on the ground as you can on your feet. .

Yes, but will it help?

[Virus]

The idea of using bujinkan kamae on the ground is ridiculous.

[spooky]

You're incorrectly expanding the meaning of "Ura/Omote gyaku" too broadly and in my mind foolishly to make a point of questionable merit. The other joint manipulations already have names and as such there is no need to re-package "Ura/Omote Gyaku."

[Fitz]

Ura/Omote Gyaku just mean inside/outside reversal. The gyaku can be applied to the body as a whole or an individual part.

A part of this comes from sloppy language usage, including by the Japanese. Although the two main wrist twists are often referred to as "Ura Gyaku" and "Omote Gyaku" both should really be classes as "Ura Kote Gyaku" and "Omote Kote Gyaku." But sloppy usage doesn't excuse falsely expanding definitions for convenience sake.

[grow_up]

It's not foolishly expanding the terminology. Not every joint lock has a particular name, do your research before you try and come up with a quip like that. I believe the Kihon Happo especially the torite kihon go-ho (the grappling bits etc) have ura gyaku, omote gyaku, hon gyaku, ganseki nage, muso dori. Then you have other locks such as take ori which although it is taught as a wrist type lock (think BJJ cow-hand), can easily be applicable to the thumbs or toes etc.

As for kamae being used on the ground, don't be ridiculous Virus. It just shows your lack of knowledge as to what a kamae is. It's not merely a positioning of hands and feet, it's many things that constitute a strategy to a victorious encounter. I can be physically in Jumonji no kamae but actually in Ichimonji from an attitude perspective. Read up on sanshin no kata, and not the crap your teacher gave you.

With regards also to what Hedge said about Ninjutsu, I would say he is correct in that it is self-defense and not a sport. Many of these techniques will end up with the attacker having broken limbs, torn tendons, and possibly (in a military or extreme self-defense situation) even result in death. This is the main reason we don't go all out, although I personally train shinken gata style with close, talented, friends I can trust not to maim me, and vice versa.

[Fitz]

It's not foolishly expanding the terminology. Not every joint lock has a particular name, do your research before you try and come up with a quip like that. I believe the Kihon Happo especially the torite kihon go-ho (the grappling bits etc) have ura gyaku, omote gyaku, hon gyaku, ganseki nage, muso dori. Then you have other locks such as take ori which although it is taught as a wrist type lock (think BJJ cow-hand), can easily be applicable to the thumbs or toes etc.

I know argumentation isn't taught often any more but you do realize that your final point has nothing to do with your initial one, right?

[gladius]

Okay Gladius, the best thing I can do I guess is try and keep your request in mind the next time I do some sparring and try and catch something on video for you.

O.K thanks, that would be intresting.

[Rubber Tanto]

Sigh...
as this thread is about to derail...allow me to start with a photo of Lucy Pinder



Now anyone else with some suggestions for ways (other than kata) they train their taijutsu?
Spooky?

[gladius]

I have from the clinch gotten omote qyaku rarely in sparring. I did not set it up per say, I saw the arm position and went for it. I get it about 1/month. Remember wrist lock are more useful as come-a-longs for bouncers or cops. They we originally designed during kumi uchi for weapon disarms.

1/month! That is very low success percentage for a technique. Have you ever seen the jujitsu 101 videos on youtube? They seem to try to find some principles and set ups for standing joint locks. Their work seems pretty good and realistic for jap jujitsu (of course they know bjj also). Check them out, maybe you can use something from them.

[spooky]

Although the two main wrist twists are often referred to as "Ura Gyaku" and "Omote Gyaku" both should really be classes as "Ura Kote Gyaku" and "Omote Kote Gyaku."

Again I've been told that too.

But sloppy usage doesn't excuse falsely expanding definitions for convenience sake.