Effective Bujinkan Training

[Virus]

Why don't you clarify MMA techniques?? At the end of the day, a punch is a punch, and a kick is a kick.

No it isn't.

I'm a "ninjer" as you put it. I was always taught to use whatever works.

So was I, which is why I don't use ninjitsu.

Me and my brother scrap a lot to learn from each other, and I've taken him down with ura and omote gyaku's before. You don't just grab his hand, twist, and hope for the best. My bro is huge and strong, so you have to do the gyaku when you've removed his strength advantage i.e. by allowing him to move into a space that makes him weak (stretch him out for those who don't understand).

Nothing proves the efficiency of a martial art like a little backyard wrestling with your brother.

[Rubber Tanto]

Rubber Tanto....its you again....how is going?
Have you throw a ninja bomb lately? So, you never disregarded a good srawl and underhooks huh? And where the hell you learned those techniques? In Bujinkan? Where exactly those techniques are placed? Between the yari disarms and how to defend against shurikens using a jutte?

Hey Gladius,
I am well. No smoke bombs...though after beans andf franks for dinner I can gas out the best of you! LOL :new_shock

Well I practice sprawls at my dojo. We train these in our alive classes. I guess one could argue that a bujinkan forward breakfall, with both hands out in front is the link one could try to use to say its in our system but to tell you the truth Gladius I really couldn't care less where it came from. All I know is we train them. I also train side control, mounts, RNCs, etc...so what...do I give a fuck if its bujinkan originated? Nope.

I'll admit it. I don't get caught up on styles being pure. I have said it before, judge a school by the school, not by the style name that hangs on the door alone. On Tuesday night myself and another guy from the dojo stayed back and we stood toe to toe and just practiced avoiding jab/cross combos...an MMA drill my mate who is a MT/MMA instructor showed me which I enjoy. We then looked at escaping from mount position...does that make us less bujinkan? Not really...we still are putting all the bujinkan tools in the tool box, but we're adding a few more as well.

*shrugs*

Don't get me wrong, I ain't no UFC or PRIDE champ...there's videos of me sparring on here that prove that... but I think I'm just okay for a 35 year old that only trains twice a week. Having said that when sparring with people of all styles, (I like to mix it up with different skillsets as much as I can) so far a list that includes MT, Kick Boxing, BJJ, MMA, Kung Fu, Chunners, Systema, TKD, Karate and traditional Boxing, I have done okay. Some sessions I have handed people their arse and some sessions I have had my arse handed to me. Sometimes I have experienced both with the same sparring partner on the same day.

And what you said just proves my point , as this is expressed in previous posts in other threads: YOU CANNOT FIGHT USING BUJINKAN TECHNIQUES! Its not your choice, this is how your body works. Why you dont try to stop takedowns with ura and omote gyakus or any other bullsjinkan technique? .

Well here we will disagree a little (just a little) and it is for two reasons.

1) I have never felt my stand up in BJK had an issue, even if I take out anything I have learned from other styles. Good taijutsu fighting tactics (granted - as I am taught them) is to sidestep, flank and counter - you tend to stay out of "shoot - zone" as shamrock would say and attack from the side where your opponent is at his poorest balance. I have mates in MMA that train the same principle so this to me does not look to be too ridiculous a concept.

Anyone who doubts my words and lives close by is more than welcome to have a friendly roll with me and get to discuss my thoughts and principles up close so that they can better understand how my dojo trains. One guy who trains BJJ on this forum was actually surprised when we got to touch hands, saying that it wasn't the bad image he had conjured from reading threads about BJK. Again...this is just a representation of MY dojo, not the bujinkan as a whole. *shrugs* I don't know...I no longer care. All I know is my dojo is trying to keep the training as realistic as possible without losing the classical side of the training either. My mates, all training in styles that are highly regarded here seem to think my training is good. I have no complaints.

2) on using omote and ura gyakkus...well in my dojo we qalways tell white belts etc when we learn these that they would really stupid to think that they will be able to pull these off on some guy throwing a punch out of no where. We stress that in the kata this is just an exercise for one to learn the dynamics and mechanics of a technique. We then look at ways of realistic exectution where these may present themselves (an example that happened to me where a drunk mate at a BBQ grabbed me by the jacket with both hands and pushed me back against the wall (it wasn't a fight he was just being stupid) and I kneed him in the gut then put omote on. Sure we were fucking around and in truth its the only time I managed to find one outside of training but its good example where that kind of stuff *might* come in handy.

3) Groundfighting for me was a weakness in the bujinkan. Now I can't speak for all schools as I hae only ever experiencd two but I noticed that we tend to have some solid techniques for on the ground, but now "game plan" on 1) how to get there 2) how to get in a position to use there if you are unwillingly taken there and 3) how to stop your oponent from taking you there.

This was something I had concerens with and in my dojo we are trying to address it. Even now as part as a long term gameplan, I have arranged to train with an MMA instructor on the side so that I can become skilled enough that maybe in a couple of years I can start a groundfighting class at our dojo. Again this is not taking away from our bujinkan training but adding to it.

~RT

[Virus]

So where did these sprawls, mounts, side controls and rear naked chokes come from? Because I'll hazard a guess it isn't from the bujinkan.

[Rubber Tanto]

Nothing proves the efficiency of a martial art like a little backyard wrestling with your brother.

Unless of course your brother was a trained grappler...
:XXbunny:

[Rubber Tanto]

So where did these sprawls, mounts, side controls and rear naked chokes come from? Because I'll hazard a guess it isn't from the bujinkan.

And you would probably be guessing right, Virus.
But out of curiosity, why should that bother me?

[Virus]

You've made it clear that it doesn't bother you. I wasn't asking that though.

[Rubber Tanto]

You've made it clear that it doesn't bother you. I wasn't asking that though.

Oh yeah. I see what your saying.
Sorry, I kind of read that wrong.

I get confused anyway. BJK is meant to be a constantly evolving art, right? So why would that not allow flexability in what you bring to your art?
Anyway...I'm gonna start rambling if I continue...so forget about it.

[grow_up]

And yes, my brother is a trained grappler so it does help, and he has won local BJJ contests. Admittedly that's not like winning UFC etc but it still says something about his skills. I learn from him and he learns from me. As for you Virus, whoever taught you Bujinkan system was a total farce clearly. No need to get overly defensive/aggressive over certain styles - if it doesn't suit you, that's fair enough, but don't go getting so ball-dry about it all.

With regards to groundfighting within the Bujinkan, I'll admit that we rarely do it for some odd reason, but when we do it's all effective and good. It's all about adapting the principles of the "stand-up" game as you say, to the floor. Same principles apply.

[gladius]

Rubber Tanto, I went through your points, but brother this does not change the fact that you or any other cannot use the techniques that are considered the cornerstone of the Bujinkan. I agree with you that mixing of arts is good and well done that you train in all those aspects of fighting, but why you just dont go to a place that you will be taught those techniques more efficiently? Mixing is good if you use both arts equally in their respected domains. So, if bujinkan techniques worked and you also mixed them with techniques from other styles that also work more power to you! But when you mix arts and you observe that in the end is the supplemental art/techniques that you always use why you just dont spend all your training hours in that art? It makes no sense, specially for a 35 old guy as you say, that as I imagine would like to have 100% efficiency for his money and time.
Aiaaaa!

[Virus]

And yes, my brother is a trained grappler so it does help, and he has won local BJJ contests. Admittedly that's not like winning UFC etc but it still says something about his skills. I learn from him and he learns from me. As for you Virus, whoever taught you Bujinkan system was a total farce clearly. No need to get overly defensive/aggressive over certain styles - if it doesn't suit you, that's fair enough, but don't go getting so ball-dry about it all.

With regards to groundfighting within the Bujinkan, I'll admit that we rarely do it for some odd reason, but when we do it's all effective and good. It's all about adapting the principles of the "stand-up" game as you say, to the floor. Same principles apply.

I believe you. I'm sure bujinkan groundwork is awesome.

[Rubber Tanto]

Rubber Tanto, I went through your points, but brother this does not change the fact that you or any other cannot use the techniques that are considered the cornerstone of the Bujinkan. I agree with you that mixing of arts is good and well done that you train in all those aspects of fighting, but why you just dont go to a place that you will be taught those techniques more efficiently? Mixing is good if you use both arts equally in their respected domains. So, if bujinkan techniques worked and you also mixed them with techniques from other styles that also work more power to you! But when you mix arts and you observe that in the end is the supplemental art/techniques that you always use why you just dont spend all your training hours in that art? It makes no sense, specially for a 35 old guy as you say, that as I imagine would like to have 100% efficiency for his money and time.
Aiaaaa!

Good post until we got to here...

But when you mix arts and you observe that in the end is the supplemental art/techniques that you always use

But I don't always use the supplemental techs...and in fact I enjoy finding ways to see a bujinkan alternative. There are many there...you just got to look for them.

Maybe Virus could help me here. One day in class a few years back we were doing a kata where the uke punches and the tori counters by "beating the uke to the punch" and punching the uke in the shoulder as tori steps in...(whats that kata called Virus? I suck with the names!) We do this kata sometimes with apunch and if distance is wrong, with an elbow...

Well I was looking at that and I thought..."that's just jamming"

I use hicho as my muay thai "check"

Its all there...if you want it to be *wink*

But like I said...I didn't feel that my stand up has any dramas. I train with people outside of the booj only because I like to see how my shit stacks up in the real world, and its stacking up okay thanks. At 35 Gladius i've done enough fighting. What I do now I do for fun. On sunday night I'll spend 4 hours at my mates MMA gym grappling...I won't be doing it because I'm worried I'm going to be attacked by a grappler...I do it because I like the workout and find it a fun thing to do..its also good exercise.

[Rubber Tanto]

With regards to groundfighting within the Bujinkan, I'll admit that we rarely do it for some odd reason, but when we do it's all effective and good. It's all about adapting the principles of the "stand-up" game as you say, to the floor. Same principles apply.

huh?
what do you mean? Are you saying that a lapel choke standing is the same as a lapel choke on your back when pinned?

Standing you get out of a lapel choke by stepping back and tilting your head. On the ground you can't do it at all...ONE example that stand up principles DO NOT apply.

[gladius]

Good post until we got to here...



But I don't always use the supplemental techs...and in fact I enjoy finding ways to see a bujinkan alternative. There are many there...you just got to look for them.

Maybe Virus could help me here. One day in class a few years back we were doing a kata where the uke punches and the tori counters by "beating the uke to the punch" and punching the uke in the shoulder as tori steps in...(whats that kata called Virus? I suck with the names!) We do this kata sometimes with apunch and if distance is wrong, with an elbow...

Well I was looking at that and I thought..."that's just jamming"

I use hicho as my muay thai "check"

Its all there...if you want it to be *wink*

But like I said...I didn't feel that my stand up has any dramas. I train with people outside of the booj only because I like to see how my shit stacks up in the real world, and its stacking up okay thanks. At 35 Gladius i've done enough fighting. What I do now I do for fun. On sunday night I'll spend 4 hours at my mates MMA gym grappling...I won't be doing it because I'm worried I'm going to be attacked by a grappler...I do it because I like the workout and find it a fun thing to do..its also good exercise.

O.K. Lets just say that I am open to some suggestions for a while and that I forgot how much the Bujinkan sucks and I am willing to learn how I could do it work. You described some training methods , but these were, well, only training. What kind of principles /tricks you use in order to make taijutsu joint locks to work under pressure? I mean, have you come up with any set ups or core principles that have allowed you to actually "catch" a omote or ura during sparring? How you lead your opponent there and how he reacted? If you have videos even better. Even if you are not a ufc champ as you say, I dont care. As long as I see someone pulling out bujinkan techniques while sparring, it would be intresting. I am not ironic. I am really curious to see if all these things you described indeed result to increase performance in fighting, regardless of your current skills.

[shinbushi]

Rubber Tanto, I went through your points, but brother this does not change the fact that you or any other cannot use the techniques that are considered the cornerstone of the Bujinkan. I agree with you that mixing of arts is good and well done that you train in all those aspects of fighting, but why you just dont go to a place that you will be taught those techniques more efficiently? Mixing is good if you use both arts equally in their respected domains. So, if bujinkan techniques worked and you also mixed them with techniques from other styles that also work more power to you! But when you mix arts and you observe that in the end is the supplemental art/techniques that you always use why you just dont spend all your training hours in that art? It makes no sense, specially for a 35 old guy as you say, that as I imagine would like to have 100% efficiency for his money and time.
Aiaaaa!

OK I will answer this one. I admit when I spar I use a Muay Thai delivery system but I also use omote and ura shutos, shinkanken, stomp kicks and kakushi geri. In grappling: Stand-up I use Uchimata, Ganseki, Gokuraku Otoshi, and Kuruma Nage. Ground is mostly BJJ and Sub Wrestling's. Even though most the chokes are in the Bujinkan Curriculum, My 1st BJJ coach is the one who taught me HOW to use them.

[shinbushi]

I mean, have you come up with any set ups or core principles that have allowed you to actually "catch" a omote or ura during sparring? .

I have from the clinch gotten omote qyaku rarely in sparring. I did not set it up per say, I saw the arm position and went for it. I get it about 1/month. Remember wrist lock are more useful as come-a-longs for bouncers or cops. They we originally designed during kumi uchi for weapon disarms.