Effective Bujinkan Training

[plasma]

I didn't watch the video but, OMG that's BJJJJJ!!!11!!11one1eleven!11exclamation mark

You already seen that video.

[plasma]

That is your proof that taijutsu works? You will tell me that what I saw in this video is techniques of taijutsu that just happen to look like BJJ? Are you guys completely irrational?

Cant you just see that mo matter what you do in the end everything is bjj?

When I asked for some videos in the first posts of the thread I was 100% certain that taijutsu does not work and if a bujinkaner spars what he will do will look like amateur bjj or mma.

After all the videos posted I am 200% certain.

Case closed: Taijutsu sucks......No let me correct it......taijutsu does not exist in the sparring reality......only in the compliant ninja training realm....and there it sucks to....

Considering BJJ comes from Judo and Judo from JJJ and Taijutsu is just another term for JJJ. Why would it look different? I trained twice as long in Taijutsu then BJJ, and I show you each kata that my techniques come from, yet its just BJJ.

Do to the age of BJJ and Taijutsu, could BJJ just be Taijutsu done right?

[plasma]

Just one more note:

A video posted that I win by hadaka jime
gladius: "Thats just BJJ"

A video posted me me being americana'd:
Shuma: "LOL, your taijutsu sux"

You guys can't have it both ways.

[gladius]

Considering BJJ comes from Judo and Judo from JJJ and Taijutsu is just another term for JJJ. Why would it look different? I trained twice as long in Taijutsu then BJJ, and I show you each kata that my techniques come from, yet its just BJJ.

Do to the age of BJJ and Taijutsu, could BJJ just be Taijutsu done right?

Have you ever saw a judoka or bjj fighter ever do techniques of taijutsu? Guess why! Because taijutsu tecniques do not work! Screw the delivery systems excuse and were bjj comes from etc... you do bjj and nothing changes that. You will never see a boxer /mma fighter lunge punching taijutsu style nor a judoka trying to throw someone down with the stupid tecniques of hatsumi were he holds the straight arm of the opponent and just rotates him until he falls.

[Fitz]

Have you ever saw a judoka or bjj fighter ever do techniques of taijutsu?

Compare Soto Tanemura's _Ninpo Taijutsu_ with Renzo Gracie, Royler Gracie, John Danaher, and Kid Peligro's _Brazilian Jiujitsu: Theory and Practice_ on a technique by technique level. You'll find a considerable amount of similar territory being covered.

Guess why! Because taijutsu tecniques do not work!

I'm sorry, I do not share your religion.

Screw the delivery systems excuse and were bjj comes from etc...

You mean ignore valid points that conflict with your faith.

[rw4th]

[plasma]

Have you ever saw a judoka or bjj fighter ever do techniques of taijutsu?

Rear Naked Choke, Tomoe Nage, Osoto Gake .... need I go on.

Guess why! Because taijutsu tecniques do not work!

I won my sparring match against a TKD/BJJer so they have to work a bit at least.

Screw the delivery systems excuse and were bjj comes from etc...

Ok I'll won't look at the obvious origin of your techniques. BJJ is an ancient Brazilian art practiced by the Native Tribes.

you do bjj and nothing changes that.

Except I don't study at a BJJ dojo.

You will never see a boxer /mma fighter lunge punching taijutsu style nor a judoka trying to throw someone down with the stupid tecniques of hatsumi were he holds the straight arm of the opponent and just rotates him until he falls.

Bujinkan sucks we all agreed. Except Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is hardly the shinning example. Bujinkan is to Taijutsu as ATA TKD is to Kyokushin Karate.

[plasma]

So the assertion by the Bujinkan folks is that since BJJ is ultimately is derived from JJJ and Taijutsu is JJJ then Taijutsu should look like BJJ.

Did you just call me a Bujinkan?!!

Becuase they a bunch of LARPing bunnies? The Genbukan been sparring since 1984.


I am not in any of the X-kans.

[Fitz]

So the assertion by the Bujinkan folks is that since BJJ is ultimately is derived from JJJ and Taijutsu is JJJ then Taijutsu should look like BJJ.

I doubt you'll find anything like that being said by any Kool Aiders.

But there aren't any Kool Aiders posting.

Hell, my interest in the Takamatsuden is largely anthropological.

My guess from the outside is that there was more cash and influence in doing the light training, historical type stuff then anything else at the time.

But if you mean "They added chokes and ground elements after the first UFC" you'd be mistaken. The material was already established part of the proposed curriculum for the Bujinkan, it simply went ignored by most people because they didn't have the faintest idea on how to use it.

I'm not so sure a blanket statement like that really applied. There is minimal "ninjaism" in the Jinenkan, the Genbukan has an entrely un-ninja wing under its banner (KJJR) and the Bujinkan...well, alright, you've got them there.

[shinbushi]

But if you mean "They added chokes and ground elements after the first UFC" you'd be mistaken. The material was already established part of the proposed curriculum for the Bujinkan, it simply went ignored by most people because they didn't have the faintest idea on how to use it.

Actually We did a lot of Chokes in Japan. The problem is that the Ten Chi Jin Did not hit the US until the late 80's and it took time for many of the big names to change what they were teaching. But submissions without 'ground fighting" is the problem. Yah in sparring, my wife has pulled off Ganseki to Jujijime off several times, buti f you don't get the sub right off the throw or take down, pure Bujinkan you would be in trouble. Now I think Takagi Yoshin Ryu had (Or has in other branches) the other important aspects of ground work but how it is currently taught in BJK school that have no other background would not work.

[DAYoung]

Oh, wonderful. A veiled WHY DON'T YOU COME TO THE THROWDOWN IN MELBOURNE, CLIMB THE STAIRS TO THE SECOND FLOOR OF THE SYDNEY OPERA HOUSE, KNOCK ON THE THIRD DOOR ON THE LEFT AND SAY YOU WANT TO MEET THE TIGER kind of one-upmanship. Sorry, i'm in Austin, but you'd do well to remember this:

I would rape you.

Hard.

You're out of line.

That wasn't a threat or a challenge.

Rubber Tanto was expressing frustration with the disembodied, abstract character of internet criticism. It's easier to learn, and to accept advice, with physical proximity (particularly when you've been sparring/rolling - it creates a pedagogical intimacy).

But you know this...

[gladius]

Rear Naked Choke, Tomoe Nage, Osoto Gake .... need I go on.



I won my sparring match against a TKD/BJJer so they have to work a bit at least.



Ok I'll won't look at the obvious origin of your techniques. BJJ is an ancient Brazilian art practiced by the Native Tribes.




Except I don't study at a BJJ dojo.



Bujinkan sucks we all agreed. Except Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is hardly the shinning example. Bujinkan is to Taijutsu as ATA TKD is to Kyokushin Karate.

1)these techniques exist in judo, they are practised, so these are not taijutsu techniques.
I mean have you ever see a judoka use techniques not taught during judo class, that belong to the bujinkan?

2) Glad you won. Which technique did you use? Dont tell me you did a chicken-wing from a side mount that you just call "onikudaki"! Because then it is bjj. Did you K.O by dropping him on his head with an ganseki?

3) I dont give a fuck where bjj, bujinkan or judo comes from. The only thing I care for is if whatever techniques I learn in training I can apply them in full contact , full resistance sparring. I dont kiss up to the brazilians and I dont consider them or bjj unbeatable. But the truth is bjj is the best syatem on the ground and compares to nothing on that domain.

4) Other kans also suck. The fact that you dont market the whole thing and sell grades like the bujinkan does not make your stupid techniques work under pressure.

5) Fitz my opinion is not based on what conflicts with my faith as you say. I care about what works. Not what comes from what or origins and other things that will not make me a better fighter.

[plasma]

1)these techniques exist in judo, they are practised, so these are not taijutsu techniques.
I mean have you ever see a judoka use techniques not taught during judo class, that belong to the bujinkan?

So I am arguing Taijutsu and not the bujinkan. I am not part of the bujinkan, they suck.

Second so take a Rear Naked Choke. Its is a Taijutsu technique we practice in class, however, once judo started doing it then BJJ, it stops being a Taijutsu technique? I don't understand. Did BJJ steal it? Can we get it back?

2) Glad you won. Which technique did you use? Dont tell me you did a chicken-wing from a side mount that you just call "onikudaki"! Because then it is bjj. Did you K.O by dropping him on his head with an ganseki?

You watched the video. Choke + Hosaku, you call it a gullotine. BTW the first time I saw a kimura is was called gyaku oni kudaki. Its a Genbukan Kihon Technique which was developed years before UFC 1.

3) I dont give a fuck where bjj, bujinkan or judo comes from. The only thing I care for is if whatever techniques I learn in training I can apply them in full contact , full resistance sparring. I dont kiss up to the brazilians and I dont consider them or bjj unbeatable. But the truth is bjj is the best syatem on the ground and compares to nothing on that domain.

I met a Gracie, weirdly you weren't hanging from his nuts. I guess wasn't paying attention.

4) Other kans also suck. The fact that you dont market the whole thing and sell grades like the bujinkan does not make your stupid techniques work under pressure.

The Genbukan school I started at sparred nearly every class and did tournments. Actually that how I got into BJJ, then wasn't a Genbukan school near my college and after sampling a few on campus clubs BJJ was the closest to what I was doing

5) Fitz my opinion is not based on what conflicts with my faith as you say. I care about what works. Not what comes from what or origins and other things that will not make me a better fighter.

Well maybe you should before claiming another style "stole your techniques"

[plasma]

After talking to Tom Kagan is become clear.

I don't do BJJ, if you fighting looks like mine, it turn out you're just doing Taijutsu. Please change your style field accordanly

[Hedgehogey]

While this is nowhere near as awful as RT and MS's sparklemotion improvised modern dance routine, it's hardly a vindication of...whatever that vague thing you won't define is, especially if it teaches you to:

-Try to wrench a guillotine with the guy's arm inside

-possibly try to neck crank him by squeezing his head with your forearm at a wrong angle

-Play open guard with your knees together but your feet splayed out, in a way that's just asking for a dump pass

-lose your balance trying to put your hooks in

-hold top turtle with no underhooks, or indeed any control on him whatsoever (which you probably realized as you got put on your butt twice from there) while you ineffectually slap him on the back

-go for an omoplata when it's not appropriate (his arm is bent the wrong way) and again add in the back slaps

-hold north south with a full two feet of space under your hips

You did do one, maybe two technical sweeps, but i'm not here to focus on the positive.