Effective Bujinkan Training

[Rubber Tanto]

Okay...I have seen a lot of people from the Bujinkan on this forum say things like "yes, at my dojo we train resistant/spar/realistically/alive - whatever trend word you want to use" so I thought it would be cool to actually start a thread where people can share the types of training methods / drills they utilize at their dojos.

I'll provide some examples of things we do and maybe we can take it from there...I also wouldn't mind reading any suggestions from outsiders I guess. If nothing but crickets chirp from this thread then so be it. Fuck it...I'm on my lunch break.


Pressure testing:
One of the pressure testing drills we have is to stand in front of a line of 5 opponents and have the first one attack you. The attack can vary as it can be punches only (good for people who have never done this kind of thing before) or grabs and punches or it can be just an all out attack. The main rules are that as attacker your attack must be 1)spontaneous, and to come on as unexpected if possible and 2) Two keep hitting, holding on, whatever, until the you have cleared them, taken them down or knocked them down. Once you have achieved this the second person must then attack.
This is not to mimic a mutiple opponent fight, this is to just keep continious pressure on you as defender so that you have less time to think.

Resistance Work:
Run through a kata several times in the usual way with Uke throws a punch then tori defending it etc, but then add a percentage of resistance to the uke progressively. Weak spots must be pointed out with a poke, jab or slap showing and vulnerabilites. After a few times with this, the uke (if the tori is coping with the drill will make the punch more compact and faster adding energy and speed to the attack, followed by resistance right through to takedown. If both partners are comfortable with the progession of the drill, uke can look at countering the technique prior to takedown.

Sparring:
At our dojo we have two kinds of sparring

1) Slow sparring which is at about 60% speed and 50% energy and we use this to find technique in the exchange so that the sparring does not get ahead of our abilities technique-wise. You see the kick coming, you have time to think of whats best to counter it / defend it with etc...so hopefully it becomes memory-implanted.

2) Regular Sparring at normal speed and 80% energy with light mitts. Just to keep things realistic.

Thats a small selection of examples. I'd like to hear from others.
Cheers
RT

[kwoww]

Sounds like you have a pretty good thing goin on there. At least way better than most.

[SWEHurricane]

Pretty much the same types of drills at my dojo, altough we like to experiment alot.

The first drill you pointed out works great if you are standing in the middle of a cirkle with your opponents around you.

Another way to do it is if your attackers are assigned to attack in a certain order, but keep moving around, so that you have to try and be aware of where everybody is all the time while concentrating on fighting the guy/girl who is attacking you. Sometimes they get you in a corner, and then it get's really hard. They can also decide to attack in random orders, or almost simultaniosly, that makes it almost impossible to "survive".

Basically it's all about escaping from the cirkle, while your opponents are trying to close you in, under pressure. Most of the time you naturally don't succeed.


Then we also have regular sparring, but sparring is most often very limited.

[Rubber Tanto]

Then we also have regular sparring, but sparring is most often very limited.

When you say sparring is limited, what do you mean? That the amount of sparring you practice is a small amount, or that you believe sparring has limitations?
Just to be clear.

[Muqatil]

Some of those sounded familiar. ;)

[shinbushi]

Resistance Work:
Run through a kata several times in the usual way with Uke throws a punch then tori defending it etc, but then add a percentage of resistance to the uke progressively. Weak spots must be pointed out with a poke, jab or slap showing and vulnerabilities. After a few times with this, the uke (if the tori is coping with the drill will make the punch more compact and faster adding energy and speed to the attack, followed by resistance right through to takedown. If both partners are comfortable with the progression of the drill, uke can look at countering the technique prior to takedown.

Now this sounds similar to how classical kata in some Ryu were done. the Shoden level of a kata You learn the kata solo or with a partner. In Bojutsu you can have bo vs bo where you both are doing tori's part where you are mirror images of each other(ie in go ho). Some kata that has chudan uchi or thrusts you have to do solo. In the Chuden level of a kata you have the uke-tori relationship. In Bojutsu for example tori does his attacks and uke as a swordman parries all the attacks. In the Okuden level of the kata uke can try to take advantage of any holes in tori kata.

I still do that in my weapons classes and used to do it in all my classes. Kata - alive- randori. but 2 problems arose.

1. not all kata can be trained alive. Even though kata may look like combat scenarios, that is not their purpose. Look at the bo vs sword example. In Go ho you parry the bo 5 times. In Sengoku you would never be able to do that most encounters were I strike you and wound or kill you. If you were lucky and/or skilled you parried and countered. The kata in this case is more about weapon handling and getting used to its weight and impact or cutting then actual techniques.
   
   Yeah some kata you can turn into an alive drill take Ichi monji no kata. I can have you throw a cross, which I parry (ala Muay Thai or Crazy Monkey) and I return with a shuto using a boxing delivery system similar to SBG's Caveman. Some TYR kata can also be good for alive drills But look at kata like Koku or Renyo from Gyokko Ryu. Can you do even parts of them alive? Plus are you going to cross step (pre 2001 Gyokko Ryu) or lead shuffle step (Post 2001 Gyokko Ryu). These kata are movement, strategy and principle drills. Combat Theory.
   
   
2. The priorities in what do teach are different. In kata training you should be going from simple to complex (Kihon Happo) with basic movement patterns. In alive training you need to go from high percentage to low. Learn Osoto Gake before Gokuraku Otoshi(Hell Drop).

I have separated my classes into kata and alive class because of this. I know have mostly students who take both, alive only and kata only students. For alive classes I went through the six main ryu and extracted out the base techniques and came up to about 110. I then ordered them by difficulty, both in percentage and complexity. Given you might have someone who can make Musha Dori his tokui waza but most have a better chance of harai goshi or uchi gake.

[Rubber Tanto]

Some of those sounded familiar. ;)

That's because I got some really good stuff from you!
:icon_tong

We have now got a HD digital camera for the alive classes to film stuff and review at the end of the session on a giant screen we have on one wall. I am yet to have had the opportunity to sit in on a taped session, but once I do Muqm I'll send you some footage.

I have separated my classes into kata and alive class because of this. I know have mostly students who take both, alive only and kata only students. For alive classes I went through the six main ryu and extracted out the base techniques and came up to about 110. I then ordered them by difficulty, both in percentage and complexity. Given you might have someone who can make Musha Dori his tokui waza but most have a better chance of harai goshi or uchi gake.

Same here. We have our traditional classes but we also have one class structure dedicated to pressure testing, sparring and resistance only, which we call BBC (Black-Belt Club) and in this we have a two tier system 1) For 8th kyu to 5th kyu which focusses on timing, resistance, pressure testing and sparring and 2) For 6th Kyu to Nidan which focusses on those just stated but also look at tactical elements, higher level sparring (full contact) and making sure you are bringing taijutsu tactics, priniples and technique with you into your sparring.

I Agree that not all waza work alive...A good example was on Sunday when I was partnered up with a white belt and were working on Omote & Ura Gyaku. I pointed out to the boy that in a real situation he would have very little chance to just "put those on" as some guy reached for his sweater (or was even holding onto his sweater) - the minute you reach for his hand he is going to recoil... Its going to be a fine line that way. And trying to train that resistant in the kata form won't work because I as Uke know what you are about to do so will pull away once you start...

but we encourage finding oportunities in the alive classes to find moments when something like this presents itself. As an example during sparring, once my uke went to grab me for a sacrifice throw, but as he started to pull me forward I dropped low and lent back, forcing us both in a crouch. Instead of trying the lock the wrist right there, I pulled away as if I was falling back then put on an ura gyaku then as we fell to our knees. It was sloppy but it was tangible and it was there and I pinned by bring my weight up around the back of his shoulder (did that make sense? I suck at explaining these things!)

Hey Shin...I tell most people now adays that to me, the techniques in a waza are the tool, (lets say an electric sander) and the waza the instruction manual on what the tool can and can't do and its basic working principle. (where the paper gets fitted, the on/off switch) The kata can also be a small project to test the tool anbd get comfortable to using the tool. (Sanding a block of wood) But you have to actually go and resistan work / sparr with the tool to see how YOU make the tool work effectively (sand an intricate door where everything is not smooth and simple)
Does that make sense to you guys?

~Nick

[shinbushi]

Great analogy!!

[grega]

scenarios
we use protective equipment and always just one fight/scenario at a time with referee to attempt to enforce safety.

weapons retention - open carry with (obviously training!) pistol in holster. attacker tries to get weapon. Defender has choice of defending weapon or defending head :) scenario is refereed and is ended when either person is in firing position. Start at various distances. Use protective equipment.

knifing - red marker hidden or rubber training knife hidden (taped) on body somewhere- when fight devolves to ground - can come into play - but it's usually pretty obvious when someone is trying to draw. forget the idea of drawing in the middle of a technique although if on feet and with a bit of distance the draw can be a winner. got to find a better way of keeping eye protection on. obviously its (almost) impossible to take the knife off someone - this is a drill in getting the knife into play.

Same idea can be used with concealed handgun carry - trying to get weapon into play in the middle of a fight

along the same lines - bag snatch : one person aims to keep the bag, the other person aims to take it. Basically normal sparring with an objective other than knocking the person out/submit. Of course the best way is to take the person out first but a time limit can be imposed.

Arrest - two or three people have to take down an actively resisting subject and end up controlling him/ ideally to the point of cuffing, cable tie. Rules are what is generally lawful (on the part of the 'officers' ) and the aim is not to damage the 'offender'.

removal (similar but with a slightly different objective)- one,two or more persons have to eject a resisting subject or move them to a certain point. Once again it is about teamwork - the 'victim' is allowed to attack unrestricted but the 'gang' are only allowed to defend or grapple - although they can VERY LIGHTLY demonstrate when they could strike.

Non violent control - we did this one with psych nurses/security guards who have to subdue someone to the point of getting a needle or canula in. The accepted method is one person for each limb and one for the head (protecting the patient's head) and one directing traffic. The psycho struggles and flails as much as possible but doesn't really fight (though may get one or two elbows in :)). It's more an exercise in teamwork under a little bit of pressure.

limited drills eg
milling - head protection and mitts (and mouthguard of course) - only target is the head, only attacks are punches. time limit.
"judo" - no striking - drill ends when one or both of the pair is on the ground.
"british bulldog" - we spent every lunchtime at school playing this game and it's still fun - for tackling and fun.
"submission' - starting on the ground until submission.
"techniques" - basically just a starting position and go from there until stopped. ie getting out of a headlock - getting out of a bearhug etc.
"kendo" basically means going at each other with shinai - fun !
etc.

fight club - unstructured sparring followed by swim in the ocean and beers :)

i think that there are many ways of training and not enough time. Newbies need to work there way up and be given confidence and building blocks. If people are paying money for a class then we should be doing something different than could be done at home for free I think. Wasting the chance to be hands on with a training partner. "instructors" role is to lead by example (be that good example or bad example ha ha) rather than teach - and to provide/enforce a safe and productive training environment.

I always thought that bujinkan training had 'no rules' so i do what i want in my own dojo. I work for a living - the dojo is for fun and interest - and i try not to compromise the training. Students come (and mainly go!) according to the rules of supply and demand : there are plenty of teachers who supply to the trekkie crowd. I have the utmost respect for my teacher Nagato sensei (respect that was beaten into me ha ha) and but consider Hatsumi sensei to be his teacher rather than my teacher. He told me that I should find people i can learn from when I returned to OZ. ie be a student and a teacher. As far as I'm concerned I was told to test myself and to cross train. (and you don't say no to nagato sensei) I'm lucky that i work with a bunch of hardcore psychopaths so we get together to go at it sometimes :)

[Hedgehogey]

"submission' - starting on the ground until submission.

YOU!

OUT OF MY FANDOM!

[Rubber Tanto]

Here's some effective Bujinkan training for you. Do as you are shown or go do something else.

No offence Spartan but you really are a sounding like a dickhead.

You are trying to turn the Bujinkan into a sport. Im not ignoring the merits of sport fighting or adapting an old art to modern society but rather that those of the Bujinkan are shown a certain way and should respect that and follow it as the teacher has intended.
.

Respect has nothing to do with it. This is a martial art, my friend. And no one is selling this product as a classical reinactment class. If realistic and applicable self defence is what is being sold, then how will you ever know if it works if you don't try to realistically apply it?

And why is it turning into a sport when you want to see how it works realistically?

Kindly point out how these types of drills make it a sport?

And please save me the no rules on the street shit.
Just to point this out, yesterday after class, myself and a nidan were talking about how so many people on forums say that submission fighting, MMA etc doesn't bother them because they would fight with "full contact no rules - such eye gouging, biting, pinching etc"

Being quite stupid, both of us decided to try it out. We had 4 sparring sessions with no holds barred. We both really wanted to see if we could force a tap-out, get a submission etc from someone like this.

It was the dumbest thing I have ever done. But as I said to Lily this morning, Matt and I went at it hammer and tong and in the end I have a huge bite mark on my tricep that drew blood under my gi, A swollen nose that bled for 30 min, he has a red/black eye from where I poked him, and scratches all over his face. I have scratches on my neck from where he raked me while I choked him, I have sore nuts from when it went to the ground and it got messy and he was punching me as I was elbowing him in the face. He thought that would stop me but the adrenaline kept it out of my mind until much after (then the sore gut started! ouch)

So in the end, today, we are both black and blue and you know what...it didn't stop either of us getting a submission. We took the pain and kept on going because we knew we had reached a point where no matter what the other guy does, as long as we can hold on we will get that choke, armbar on etc...

on a side note. Matt is an awesome martial artist. His form is perfect, his sparring is awesome, his last rank came straight from nagato. And when I spar with him and I go in with a "sport" jab/cross and he flanks and drops one on my jaw and its pure taijustu...I know why I am at THIS dojo. And I know that the decision for me to train the way IO train is the right one.

So let me rephrase your own comment.
If you want to train in just classical bujinkan kata, then good for you Spartan, just don't bother telling me to train like you or leave...I'm not interested.

I'll train the way I want to train: Realisticaly and effectively. Where you find the sport in doing that is beyond me.

Oh and for the record, before you go spouting your "real-life experiences" again which was some guy had a weapon and you ran. I've been in a situation where some guy had a weapon and I couldn't run...so for me, the difference between what you think you will be able to do in a real situation and what you know you can do in a real situation are two very different things.

Everything has it's place.

And yours is clearly not here.

[DAYoung]

No offence Spartan but you really are a sounding like a dickhead.


Respect has nothing to do with it. This is a martial art, my friend. And no one is selling this product as a classical reinactment class. If realistic and applicable self defence is what is being sold, then how will you ever know if it works if you don't try to realistically apply it?

And why is it turning into a sport when you want to see how it works realistically?

Kindly point out how these types of drills make it a sport?

And please save me the no rules on the street shit.
Just to point this out, yesterday after class, myself and a nidan were talking about how so many people on forums say that submission fighting, MMA etc doesn't bother them because they would fight with "full contact no rules - such eye gouging, biting, pinching etc"

Being quite stupid, both of us decided to try it out. We had 4 sparring sessions with no holds barred. We both really wanted to see if we could force a tap-out, get a submission etc from someone like this.

It was the dumbest thing I have ever done. But as I said to Lily this morning, Matt and I went at it hammer and tong and in the end I have a huge bite mark on my tricep that drew blood under my gi, A swollen nose that bled for 30 min, he has a red/black eye from where I poked him, and scratches all over his face. I have scratches on my neck from where he raked me while I choked him, I have sore nuts from when it went to the ground and it got messy and he was punching me as I was elbowing him in the face. He thought that would stop me but the adrenaline kept it out of my mind until much after (then the sore gut started! ouch)

So in the end, today, we are both black and blue and you know what...it didn't stop either of us getting a submission. We took the pain and kept on going because we knew we had reached a point where no matter what the other guy does, as long as we can hold on we will get that choke, armbar on etc...

on a side note. Matt is an awesome martial artist. His form is perfect, his sparring is awesome, his last rank came straight from nagato. And when I spar with him and I go in with a "sport" jab/cross and he flanks and drops one on my jaw and its pure taijustu...I know why I am at THIS dojo. And I know that the decision for me to train the way IO train is the right one.

So let me rephrase your own comment.
If you want to train in just classical bujinkan kata, then good for you Spartan, just don't bother telling me to train like you or leave...I'm not interested.

I'll train the way I want to train: Realisticaly and effectively. Where you find the sport in doing that is beyond me.

Oh and for the record, before you go spouting your "real-life experiences" again which was some guy had a weapon and you ran. I've been in a situation where some guy had a weapon and I couldn't run...so for me, the difference between what you think you will be able to do in a real situation and what you know you can do in a real situation are two very different things.


And yours is clearly not here.

What a fantastic post.

This is the kind of post that should be stickied, just as a reminder.

[Hedgehogey]

"submission' - starting on the ground until submission.

I'm still not seeing an explanation for this. Help me understand. As one human being to another, almost alone in this empty universe, seeking love and attention and all the things that distract from the pain...tell me why I shouldn't use this statement to get you sent to the labor camps.

[Rubber Tanto]

I'm still not seeing an explanation for this. Help me understand. As one human being to another, almost alone in this empty universe, seeking love and attention and all the things that distract from the pain...tell me why I shouldn't use this statement to get you sent to the labor camps.

I can only guess, but I think he means he and his training partner start of on the ground then grapple until one gets to successfuly submit the other. If that's not it then I have no fucking idea.

:confused1

[bob]

Being quite stupid, both of us decided to try it out. We had 4 sparring sessions with no holds barred. We both really wanted to see if we could force a tap-out, get a submission etc from someone like this.

It was the dumbest thing I have ever done. But as I said to Lily this morning, Matt and I went at it hammer and tong and in the end I have a huge bite mark on my tricep that drew blood under my gi, A swollen nose that bled for 30 min, he has a red/black eye from where I poked him, and scratches all over his face. I have scratches on my neck from where he raked me while I choked him, I have sore nuts from when it went to the ground and it got messy and he was punching me as I was elbowing him in the face. He thought that would stop me but the adrenaline kept it out of my mind until much after (then the sore gut started! ouch)

So in the end, today, we are both black and blue and you know what...it didn't stop either of us getting a submission. We took the pain and kept on going because we knew we had reached a point where no matter what the other guy does, as long as we can hold on we will get that choke, armbar on etc...
.

I'm seriously reconsidering going to your throwdown dude.