Exploring the Ninja

[cyrijl]

I think any martial art will work if you train properly at it and that includes bujinkan.

I think this is just false

[PSanderson]

Personally i think combining Ninjitsu with something else is effective, i was watching something called 'Final Fu' with a whole bunch of martial artists and the guy who won knew Ninjutsu/ TKD, i think it was point fighting though but i still like the thought.

By sheer bizarre chance, I think I actually saw that show. It was, in case anyone is wondering, utterly ridiculous. I can't remember the details, unfortunately; I seem to recall there were a few bits that were downright hysterical.

[BackFistMonkey]

I think this is just false

Depends on the opponent and what you mean by "work" .

I have seen people use the windmilling arms-football tackle-jump 2 crappy low mount-arm punch GNP technique to great effect .

It will not "work" on some people ... others ... it works fine . It is defined by your goals and your personal standards .


Do you want something that kinda "works" ... some times ... mainly when you get lucky or have a clueless punching dummy ?

Or something you know "works" all the time because you have tried it against resistance and intent under different rule sets ?

[WorldWarCheese]

This is just a thought, but do you think the fight ended up on the ground BECAUSE he had no training?

Or could it be that fights just tend to end up there and you don't want to believe it. I mean, for Chrissake grapplers learn to take you to the ground so if you argue that no one could take you there, I recommend watching Karo Parisyan or, even better, just reg Judo comp vids.

There have been, from what I've heard, two ninjutsu practitioners in UFC; one that got owned and one that won UFC.

Saw it, the guy won because he was large, in shape, and got a bi from someone who couldn't continue due to unjury and by the old rules the looser couldn't continure in their place. He basically showed up and won a single match against a smaller and tired/beat up opponent. Not the best publicity. He later showed up in UFC 4 where he lost a striking war with someone.

Personally, I think that combining Ninjitsu with something else would be* effective. I was watching something called 'Final Fu' with a whole bunch of martial artists and the guy who won knew Ninjutsu/ TKD. I think it was point fighting, though, but I still like the thought.

I saw all of "Final Fu" to later write on its Wikipedia page and an article on Facebook.com. It is, was, and ever shall be a joke. An EMC Monkey won a first level section. One of the "tests" involved using a bo-staff to hit empty carboard boxes into an over-turned dumpster in what looked like a garage. (It was supposedly to test the "hand-eye coordination and skill with the staff") Do not bring it up again as an argument in the favor of ANY art unless saying "Judo is the best BECAUSE it was not tarnished by the Final Fu"

Who says that I ONLY do Bujinkan? I've had past training with Kempo, Kickboxing, a little TKD, and a friend taught me in Shorin Ryu karate (he's a black belt).

Your style box says "Ninjutsu/Bujinkan".

If I'm in a real fight I'm not gunna lunge punch.

I don't think it was implied you practiced DOING lunge punches, but rather practiced mainly AGAINST lunge punches (or wide swinging haymakers and the like) thus meaning your training does not affectively deal with someone proficient in striking. I know this is the case for my old Goju Ryu Dojo; while we didn't train agains them ALL the time and the lunges were more like medium steps forward they constituted a good part of our striking corriculum and are not an intelligible way to prepare for a hitting match (my Helmet Boxing videos on Youtube are testament to this. I trained there for 8 years and gained a Nidan and fought a slightly high man of equal weight who had no training to barely a victory)

I'm not stupid.

Then use proper grammar, it's easier to read.

I'm just saying Bujinkan works from my point of view. I'm very sorry if I seem like Mr. Preacher Ninjaman. Please forgive me if I insulted any of you. I'm just trying to defend Bujinkan because so many people put it down.

But you must understand the reason so many people put it down is because so many have found it lacking.

I think any martial art will work if you train properly at it and that includes Bujinkan. Kalaripayattu is a different story...it looks wierd

This is awsome! You've just given a corresponding feeling of another art! To everyone who trains with what has come to be known as "aliveness" Bujinkan looks like it's from ANOTHER PLANET! Putting aside all it's failed pressure testings; how you view Kalaripayattu is how the average Judoka or BJJer or Kickboxer sees the Bujinkan. Understand?

i think your just ignorant

Ignorant of what? The strengths of the Bujinkan? You've given them and they have either been proven un-tested (and thus as unverifiable as the Flying Spaghetti Monster) or been over-shadowed by the Bujinkan's weaknesses. So most people here are quite aware of everything prevalent to the discussion and are pro'lly the farthest people from ignorant about Ninjas as you can come accross.

* You had "is" which is wrong because you gave no effective example of this from first hand experience/training. You're comment was more assumption than state of fact.

[cyrijl]

If you think any and every martial art is effective then you are an utter fucktard. Maybe when you grow up you will stop having these ninjer delusions.

[Lily]

If you think any and every martial art is effective then you are an utter fucktard. Maybe when you grow up you will stop having these ninjer delusions.

I totally agree with you. Its nice and all that people like to make each other feel better by saying things like:

'You can do it!'
'That was...good'
'It's the individual, not the MA. ___ is as good as ANY other MA when trained properly, correctly, if you've got the 'feeling', breathed the same air as Soke' etc.

But its stupid and against what I believe MA to be (i.e. fighting, challenging yourself and facing the truth). In contrast I find that some ninjas in fact veil themselves behind further layers of untruths, delusions, shaky beliefs, blind faith etc.

[Fitz]

In contrast I find that some ninjas in fact veil themselves behind further layers of untruths, delusions, shaky beliefs, blind faith etc.

It's mostly lazyness.

Most "ninjas" don't train the basics of their own art with any seriousness. They don't bother to attend to their diet and conditioning. They don't bother to read the primary material that Hatsumi released for the sake of training. They don't track down the teachers wthin the Takamatsuden known for their skill and effectiveness, whether in real conflict or in historic transmission. They accept bullshit teaching methods rather then challenging or leaving bad teachers. Mostly though they accept the comforting delusion, as it excuses all the rest, that because Takamatsu was a skilled fighter or Hatsumi a skilled martial artist that this means what they themselves are doing is useful.

And what's funny is they do it to themselves and actively resent people in their own group who decide hard work is a better course then delusion.

[FilipinoNinja]

Or could it be that fights just tend to end up there and you don't want to believe it. I mean, for Chrissake grapplers learn to take you to the ground so if you argue that no one could take you there, I recommend watching Karo Parisyan or, even better, just reg Judo comp vids.


Saw it, the guy won because he was large, in shape, and got a bi from someone who couldn't continue due to unjury and by the old rules the looser couldn't continure in their place. He basically showed up and won a single match against a smaller and tired/beat up opponent. Not the best publicity. He later showed up in UFC 4 where he lost a striking war with someone.


I saw all of "Final Fu" to later write on its Wikipedia page and an article on Facebook.com. It is, was, and ever shall be a joke. An EMC Monkey won a first level section. One of the "tests" involved using a bo-staff to hit empty carboard boxes into an over-turned dumpster in what looked like a garage. (It was supposedly to test the "hand-eye coordination and skill with the staff") Do not bring it up again as an argument in the favor of ANY art unless saying "Judo is the best BECAUSE it was not tarnished by the Final Fu"


Your style box says "Ninjutsu/Bujinkan".


I don't think it was implied you practiced DOING lunge punches, but rather practiced mainly AGAINST lunge punches (or wide swinging haymakers and the like) thus meaning your training does not affectively deal with someone proficient in striking. I know this is the case for my old Goju Ryu Dojo; while we didn't train agains them ALL the time and the lunges were more like medium steps forward they constituted a good part of our striking corriculum and are not an intelligible way to prepare for a hitting match (my Helmet Boxing videos on Youtube are testament to this. I trained there for 8 years and gained a Nidan and fought a slightly high man of equal weight who had no training to barely a victory)


Then use proper grammar, it's easier to read.


But you must understand the reason so many people put it down is because so many have found it lacking.


This is awsome! You've just given a corresponding feeling of another art! To everyone who trains with what has come to be known as "aliveness" Bujinkan looks like it's from ANOTHER PLANET! Putting aside all it's failed pressure testings; how you view Kalaripayattu is how the average Judoka or BJJer or Kickboxer sees the Bujinkan. Understand?


Ignorant of what? The strengths of the Bujinkan? You've given them and they have either been proven un-tested (and thus as unverifiable as the Flying Spaghetti Monster) or been over-shadowed by the Bujinkan's weaknesses. So most people here are quite aware of everything prevalent to the discussion and are pro'lly the farthest people from ignorant about Ninjas as you can come accross.

* You had "is" which is wrong because you gave no effective example of this from first hand experience/training. You're comment was more assumption than state of fact.

first off im not saying i cant be taken to the ground, its just when you get into a street fight the guy isnt going to know BJJ or Judo or something like that, ofcourse the fight may end up on the ground but you can always prevent that too.

And i was just bringing up final fu as a small point, sure it may have been a joke but they still had point fighting, not just pointless hitting boxes with quarterstaff, which i thought was a bit silly too.

my box says what im currently training in but ive had past experiences in MA

sure we may learn how to defend from lunge punches but regular punches and jabs we learn to defend from too, and your more to see haymakers and hooks in a real fight, ive seen alot of real fights and ive heard from more than one source(not my instructor) you'll see hooks rather than straight punches.

sure people may have had bad exp with bujinkan, so what, not me, and when i DO have a bad exp...IF i do...ill learn from it and tell you guys all about it, then switch martial arts, i promise... the problem is i have no enemies so i cant get into a fight, ive already fought my friends for fun and usually win, but its joke fighting and im not sure if it counts. Personally i think Bujinkan works for some and not others, hard to explain but thats what i think.

I dont do unrealistic training, like learn a move in class and when i get into a fight, try to remember it then try the move out and pray to God and hope it works. I do realistic training(or what i think is realistic) and try it out on people stronger than me, and if i have a mistake i work it out, i spar with friends and ask other martial artists what they think about some of my techniqes and try out some of theirs.

[BloodMagus]

Damnit WWC, you've just gone and argued all my damn points.

[BloodMagus]

Looks like satan heard my call.

first off im not saying i cant be taken to the ground, its just when you get into a street fight the guy isnt going to know BJJ or Judo or something like that, ofcourse the fight may end up on the ground but you can always prevent that too.

Exactly what are you trying to say here. That if the guy did know BJJ, it wouldn't have gone to the ground? Or are you saying you can prevent the unexpected?

my box says what im currently training in but ive had past experiences in MA

Excuse us for lacking the psychic ability to know unmentioned MA histories of people

sure we may learn how to defend from lunge punches but regular punches and jabs we learn to defend from too, and your more to see haymakers and hooks in a real fight, ive seen alot of real fights and ive heard from more than one source(not my instructor) you'll see hooks rather than straight punches.

I agree that from what I've seen, the n00bs will throw a hook/haymaker/cheap shot to start things off. But inform us as to these real fights you've seen. Were they in or out of a ring, and who were the participants(kids, gangbangers, etc).
You may, by some freak chance, practice to defend against jabs & crosses. However you will 90% of your ninjer comrades don't. Congrats for being above the bell curve. Too bad the bell curve's average is CRAP.

sure people may have had bad exp with bujinkan, so what, not me, and when i DO have a bad exp...IF i do...ill learn from it and tell you guys all about it, then switch martial arts, i promise... the problem is i have no enemies so i cant get into a fight, ive already fought my friends for fun and usually win, but its joke fighting and im not sure if it counts. Personally i think Bujinkan works for some and not others, hard to explain but thats what i think.

Find a local MMA club, get into the ring. Test your moves. Failing that, gee up one of your fellow students, and have a *PROPER* roll.
OR better yet, attend the next local BS throwdown.

I dont do unrealistic training, like learn a move in class and when i get into a fight, try to remember it then try the move out and pray to God and hope it works. I do realistic training(or what i think is realistic) and try it out on people stronger than me, and if i have a mistake i work it out, i spar with friends and ask other martial artists what they think about some of my techniqes and try out some of theirs.

Thats not what is defined as unrealistic training. Unrealistic training is training for situations that just aren't real, i.e someone lunge punching you.
Make a vid of your training. Show us. Prove us wrong.

[Virus]

If you look at a real clinch you see things like the pummel and the collar tie, snap-downs ect. Bujinkan "clinch" training doesn't address these. They do things against a gentle collar grab, or an arm/wrist grab. Someone that crashes in and pummels for underhooks isn't dealt with in the system, neither is the ability to do so taught.

So which is better?

a) Learn something in a silly way in a silly context, then try to guess what you are actually supposed to do in an alive situation?

b) Do something that always was alive in the first place?

I'll go with b) but hey, if martial arts renovation is your thing then good on you. It's just something that I'm personally not interested in.

[WorldWarCheese]

Dammit, BloodMagus! You just argued all my points!

[BloodMagus]

WWC: We can take turns, the next ninjer to attempt argument is all yours. The next one is mine, and so on.

If anyone else wants in, we can have a rotation. Others can chime in for stuff we miss.

the first rule of ninjitsu is... be a gullible fucking moron

Not in defense of the ninjers, but asimov once wrote
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
I propose the a similar theory:
Any sufficiently advanced technique is indistinguishable from ninjutsu

This is not to say that advanced technique is as good as ninjutsu (hell no), but to say that if you don't understand what's going on, then it could be passed off as ninjutsu. Hence why these poor noobz keep falling for bad ninjerism, coda scott, chiblasting and so on.

[Fitz]

You have the equation wrong.

Any sufficently advanced form of bullshit will appear indistinguishable from profundity.

It's the backbone of all games of playing the "Ascended Charlatan" whether in religion, politics or the martial arts.

[WorldWarCheese]

Magus: Deal, but if for some inexplicable reason I don't post a response in a timely fashion feel free to do cutsies. My internet connection has been touch and go for a bit.

Oh, and I like Fitz's equation better. Especially because I now know what "profundity" means.