Why do people see Hapkido as Ineffective/Unrealistic?

[drewtoby]

With the wide skill base of Hapkido how could you not be effective? You learn strikes, kicks, throws, blocks, basic ground work, weapons, break falling (I used this several times in real life), and especially grabbing. Your opponent may be better in one area, say kicking, but you are better in the other areas. Plus, if you have the speed you can trap kicks and use take downs.

Also, people say it is not effective against a fully resisting opponent. Isn't that why we learn strikes? Induce a second of pain and their resistance will lower for that second, long enough to flow into a finishing move.

Finally, you don't need to learn the thousands of moves. Just make a few become second nature and mindless. You can apply many of the moves in more than one strike, grab, ect. This is where you become dangerous to grab, strike, ect.

I know no martial art or artist is perfect, and you can always be defeated no matter what. But, I see hapkido as a good skill set to add to your arsenal. If you disagree, please state your reason. I want to see if my logic is flawed as many people don't speak kindly of hapkido on here.

[OwlMatt]

Also, people say it is not effective against a fully resisting opponent. Isn't that why we learn strikes? Induce a second of pain and their resistance will lower for that second, long enough to flow into a finishing move.

The way you become effective against fully resisting opponents is by practicing against fully resisting opponents. Adding stylized strikes to my stylized aikido locks and throws wouldn't suddenly make me an effective fighter.

[Nickosaurus]

I did a "Traditional" form of Ju-Jitsu which taught all of those things you mentioned all of that in two and a half hours a week. I was a Jack of all trades and not even good in anything.

After nearly three years I knew in theory about striking and throwing but they I began to cross train in a style with resisting opponents (Judo) I found that while a knew how to do an arm-lock I didn't have any way of getting in the right position while they were resisting. It never worked out like the drills I had done, for example getting the hip in the right place for a throw is easy when the uke stands still but when they move its a totally different skill.

Why not try a martial art with resistance and see for yourself? you will know what I mean after two hours

[Permalost]

What has hapkido done to prove itself effective and realistic? Pro hapkido maybe?

[Fuzzy]

I know two very hard Hapkido guys, both of them have kicked my ass in sparring a number of times.

They spar and cross-train though.

[Scrapper]

They spar and cross-train though.

Every time a non-alive style has a tough practitioner, this proviso always seems to follow the assertion...

[drewtoby]

Thanks! All good points, and I can see that I should look into cross training sometime in the future. I was looking into BJJ, but was unimpressed with the ground work emphasis. I would not want to do that in a real fight.

OwlMatt: If you pull off a good hit to the groin or solar-plexus though, wouldn't your response instantly be to bend in pain, or at lease lessen your tension from the pain/shock of impact? Just my thought, but I see your point.

Nickosaurus: My first hapkido dojo was more combat oriented. We only had a few hundred moves at most and applied them to all different types of grabs, punches, ect. Now that I am in the World Hapkido Federation I can see that you have to work on mastering moves mostly in your own time (mental review does wonders). I try to keep the outlook of the combat oriented dojo: pick and choose what works for you. Only difference is there are a lot more moves I have to learn.

[OwlMatt]

OwlMatt: If you pull off a good hit to the groin or solar-plexus though, wouldn't your response instantly be to bend in pain, or at lease lessen your tension from the pain/shock of impact? Just my thought, but I see your point.

Of course, pulling off something like that could be very effective. But you're unlikely to pull it off in a real fight unless you have practiced it against realistic resistance.

[drewtoby]

But, what do you recommend cross training with?

Permalost: You gain the muscle memory of using your opponents force against them self. Lets just say I had a drop throw come in real handy once in my life. I did it with out thinking too.

OwlMatt: You are right. I guess that is where my combat oriented school did a good job. We had to throw a good kick/punch before we went into a move. We repeated that drill endlessly. We also worked with escapes against full resistance, as well as some moves. That clears up a lot of my confusion =)

[Permalost]

Thanks! All good points, and I can see that I should look into cross training sometime in the future. I was looking into BJJ, but was unimpressed with the ground work emphasis. I would not want to do that in a real fight.

The way to avoid being taken down is to learn to grapple. The way to develop getting-up skills when someone does manage to take you down is to learn to grapple.

[drewtoby]

The way to avoid being taken down is to learn to grapple. The way to develop getting-up skills when someone does manage to take you down is to learn to grapple.

Okay, I can see why I am confused about stuff like this. My combat-oriented school was just that. We learned how to counter throws, basic grappling (side and straight), as well as defense for when we are on the floor and our opponent is not. I guess it comes down to the school.

[Dork Angel]

With the wide skill base of Hapkido how could you not be effective? You learn strikes, kicks, throws, blocks, basic ground work, weapons, break falling (I used this several times in real life), and especially grabbing. Your opponent may be better in one area, say kicking, but you are better in the other areas. Plus, if you have the speed you can trap kicks and use take downs.

Also, people say it is not effective against a fully resisting opponent. Isn't that why we learn strikes? Induce a second of pain and their resistance will lower for that second, long enough to flow into a finishing move.

Finally, you don't need to learn the thousands of moves. Just make a few become second nature and mindless. You can apply many of the moves in more than one strike, grab, ect. This is where you become dangerous to grab, strike, ect.

I know no martial art or artist is perfect, and you can always be defeated no matter what. But, I see hapkido as a good skill set to add to your arsenal. If you disagree, please state your reason. I want to see if my logic is flawed as many people don't speak kindly of hapkido on here.

I do not know much about Hapkido but from your description it sounds like the traditional jujitsu style I trained in (i.e. block - strike - throw - lock; and a lot of defences against different grab and holds). The syllabus consisted of a large variety of moves which were learned against specific attacks. Like you, what I liked about jujitsu was that we did a bit of everything.

After 10 years of training and instructing however I stopped believing this is the best way to learn. We learned moves in long chains, but if any of those chains got broken you were lost. The more you learned the more complicated it got. I could see people doing a throw and then stopping as they tried to remember which lock went with that throw when in reality it didn't matter which one. More choices makes you slower not faster. I feel our syllabus was overcomplicated and bloated (I suspect so we could say we had more throws/moves than our competitors). Yes there was a lot of good stuff in there but it was hard to find.

Like you say, one or two good moves from a variety of attacks are better but if that's not how you train then that's not how you will fight. I now believe you should train for position and striking/evasion, throws and groundwork are separate skills and need to be drilled as such. You strike until you in a position to throw, you throw until you are in a position to lock. A professional footballer will not just spend their time playing football all the time. They will train separately in the different skills required (i.e. dribbling, tackling, shooting and passing). Then in a match they will use the skill they need based on what is required at the time rather than waiting for the ball to be in the right place.

Most of the people here seem to worship at the altar of live sparring and while I don't agree with them 100% they have a point. Yes there are some moves you wouldn't do while sparring that you would do in reality but that is far outweighed by the advantage of learning to hit a moving target, learning to avoid being hit by someone who tries to hit you more than once and how to grapple with someone who resists your throws and locks. This way you are learning skills rather than just repeating patterns and hoping one of them matches the situation you are in.

On the other hand, maybe Hapkido training is nothing like my Jujitsu training in which case just gave away all my dirty secrets for nothing...

[Permalost]

Okay, I can see why I am confused about stuff like this. My combat-oriented school was just that. We learned how to counter throws, basic grappling (side and straight), as well as defense for when we are on the floor and our opponent is not. I guess it comes down to the school.

What do you mean by side and straight grappling?

[It is Fake]

If you pull off a good hit to the groin or solar-plexus though, wouldn't your response instantly be to bend in pain, or at lease lessen your tension from the pain/shock of impact? Just my thought, but I see your point.

Depends, I've been dropped I've also foght through it and kept sparring. The only way to know is to actually spar with intent and unscripted.

How much do you spar?

Most of the people here seem to worship at the altar of live sparring and while I don't agree with them 100% they have a point.

This snark is usually posted by someone who doesn't understand bullshido. It is the overwhelming altar of proof and aliveness, not just live sparring. When there are MULTIPLE MMA, wrestling, boxing, fencing, Karate, Judo or Muay Thai champions that only do forms and choreographed one steps then the altar will change.

[alex]

Okay, I can see why I am confused about stuff like this. My combat-oriented school was just that. We learned how to counter throws, basic grappling (side and straight), as well as defense for when we are on the floor and our opponent is not. I guess it comes down to the school.

No. go to a BJJ school and see how well these techniques actually work against someone who is -actually- trying to take you down. please. maybe then you will understand what live training is all about.

dont be scared homie