TAKAMATSUDEN: Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu. (Information required.)

[Oniwaban]

Hi everyone.

I am investigating about Gikan-ryu and I have two sources: One is that Takamatsu got Gikan-ryu from Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage (the man who was the security supervisor in the match factory of his father), and the other one is Mizuta Yoshitaro Todafusa (apparently, his only real teacher), so, can you tell me who was Takamatsu's Gikan-ryu teacher?

The thing is that I read something about that Ishitane never existed, and at the same time I am thinking that maybe this "koppojutsu" thing is a "Takamatsu's thing". I read a letter from Karl Friday, a reputed japanese historian, where he says that this term (Koppo) is a incomplete term by it self, so Koppojutsu is redundant (because the "po" of "koppo" that means "method" like "jutsu" also means).

By other side there is some text about that nobody can confirm Ishitani's existence, (the Kuki family never met him) so this could put the Takamatsu's teachers group from three to just one: Mizuta.

Well, I would like to know for sure about who was Takamatsu's Gikan Ryu teacher.

And another question: Did Mizuta teach Takamatsu Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu and Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu or just only HTTYRJ? (Because the Gikan-ryu part, if it was Ishitani...)

Is there the possibility for that Takamatsu could made-up Gikan-ryu?

Thanks in advance.

[Oniwaban]

By the way, this is some of the information that makes me doubt:

http://www.hanako.co.uk/History/Reki...-Gikan-Ryu.pdf

http://www.hanako.co.uk/History/Rela...-Sato-Soke.pdf

http://www.hanako.co.uk/Charts/Bujinkan-keizu.pdf

As you can see this information came from the same source but it is not accurate.

I really do not know anything about Gikan-ryu, so I will appreciate your considerations about this.

Thanks in advance.

[Troy Wideman]

Hello,

I would suggest you check out the Takagi Yoshin ryugroup in kobe. They have located isitani,s grave Site. So yes he did exist.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

[Oniwaban]

Hello,

I would suggest you check out the Takagi Yoshin ryugroup in kobe. They have located isitani,s grave Site. So yes he did exist.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Hello Troy Wideman.

Thank you very much for the information. I will check... Then I will post what I find.

But, about Gikan-ryu: Takamatsu inherited this Ryu-ha from Ishitani or from Mizuta?

Kind regards to you too.

[Oniwaban]

Hi everyone.

As Troy Wideman recommended me, I looked for the Takagi Yoshin-ryu group in Kobe (even with kanji) but I got nothing.

But, in the way I found this:


This is the URL: http://www.northlakesjujutsu.co.uk/0...ha_lineage.gif

I found it very interesting, by the way.

Look how they established that Ishitani existed but they do not relate him with Takamatsu Toshitsugu. There is another Takamatsu, named Yukichi, but I can not conclude if this person could be Toshitsugu too. For now, is not.

I made a diagram too, with the information that I already have. Here it is:


The URL is: http://oi50.tinypic.com/1971og.jpg

As I said, this diagram (http://www.hanako.co.uk/Charts/Bujinkan-keizu.pdf) made me wonder about why they related Gikan-ryu with Mizuta and not with Ishitani. I have some ideas but first I would like to know some opinions.

Please (any one), take a look and tell me what about.

Thanks.

[Troy Wideman]

Hello ONiwaban,

Not going to get into the stories and etc. I only sent you that way to show you that they had found Ishitani's grave because your statements were such that you were questioning if he was alive. They have a picture of his grave site on the website. They are not going to give you the exact location unless you joined their ryu ha. I wish you luck in your search. Asking on bullshido, where there is a majority off people that have a disdain for the Takamatsu den will probably not get you very far. I would suggest you ask nicely on E-budo, Takamatsu den. Do you train in the arts or are you ranked in any of the ryu ha?

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Hi everyone.

As Troy Wideman recommended me, I looked for the Takagi Yoshin-ryu group in Kobe (even with kanji) but I got nothing.

But, in the way I found this:


This is the URL: http://www.northlakesjujutsu.co.uk/0...ha_lineage.gif

I found it very interesting, by the way.

Look how they established that Ishitani existed but they do not relate him with Takamatsu Toshitsugu. There is another Takamatsu, named Yukichi, but I can not conclude if this person could be Toshitsugu too. For now, is not.

I made a diagram too, with the information that I already have. Here it is:


The URL is: http://oi50.tinypic.com/1971og.jpg

As I said, this diagram (http://www.hanako.co.uk/Charts/Bujinkan-keizu.pdf) made me wonder about why they related Gikan-ryu with Mizuta and not with Ishitani. I have some ideas but first I would like to know some opinions.

Please (any one), take a look and tell me what about.

Thanks.