TAKAMATSUDEN RYU-HA: Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu (Information required)

[Oniwaban]

Hi everyone.

I am looking for more information about this so called "Takamatsuden Ryu-ha". I am trying to find some good -and real- information about other sources for Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu different from Toshitsugu Takamatsu.

I believe he made-up Togakure-ryu, Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu with what he could had learned in China and then he combined with the lots of Densho that he collected during his live, but there are some people who affirm that Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu "can be traceable before Takamatsu". (Togakure-ryu simply can not be traceable before Takamatsu, so I believe that he is the real founder of this Ryu-ha.)

About Shindenfudo-ryu I understand that they are some rare sources about the founder of the Shito-ryu, Kenwa Mabuni, who was taught Shindenfudo-ryu in Okinawa.
Is this story true?
Any other information about this Ryu?
Any other Soke?
Any informtation before Takamatsu?

About Koto-ryu I understand that there is a Soke, named Fumon Tanaka who is considerated the true Soke of this Ryu.
Is this story true?
Any other information about this Ryu?
Any other Soke?
Any information before Takamatsu?

About Gyokko-ryu I understand that the Densho of this Ryu-ha is physically the same paper of Togakure-ryu Densho, so in some way Togakure-ryu can actually be the Ninpo part of Gyokko-ryu. I understand that there was an "Ura Soke" (hidden Soke) for Togakure-ryu at the same time that Masaaki Hatsumi was the "Omote Soke" (exposed Soke), that Takamatsu made a copy by his own hand for this Ura Soke, named Yoshio Fukumoto and now this copy is on hands of Shoto Tanemura with the Menkyo Kaiden (and a new Densho copy) that he got from Hatsumi, but before Takamatsu there is no evidence of the existence of the Togakure-ryu, so in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten the editor (who was friend of Takamatsu) says that Takamatsu made-up this Ryu-ha from his childhood games when he was a kid, and well, I have nothing about Gyokko-ryu by itself.
Are this stories true?
Any other information about Gyokko-ryu?
Any other Soke?
Any information before Takamatsu?

About the teacher of Takamatsu Toshitsugu named Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda, there are no evidence that he ever existed, and -officially- is assumed that he was who taught Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu, Gyokko-ryu and Togakure-ryu to Takamatsu. So, what is the real story of this?

Are Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu made-up by Toshitsugu Takamatsu or they can be traceable before him or by other sources?

I appreciate your good contributions.

Thanks...

[DerAuslander]

Hi I believe he made-up Togakure-ryu, Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu with what he could had learned in China and then he combined with the lots of Densho that he collected during his live, but there are some people who affirm that Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu "can be traceable before Takamatsu". (Togakure-ryu simply can not be traceable before Takamatsu, so I believe that he is the real founder of this Ryu-ha.)

Considering there are branches of Gyokko-ryu completely unrelated to Takamatsu or the ninjers....you'd be wrong.

[Styygens]

Ah, the Takamatsuden Spaghetti again... The more you try to follow one thread and unravel the tangle, the bigger the mess you make.



Seriously, you might pick up some useful leads from people in this forum, but for the most part even those of us who at one point did care have stopped wasting energy on the matter. Try the search function to see what's already been said on Bullshido on this topic.

The best I can summarize is that the material from Kukishinden Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Koto Ryu, and Gyokko Ryu all have some life and some proof independent of Takamatsu. Togakure Ryu, as you know, can't be traced further back than Takamatsu. The material associated with Gyokushin Ryu, Gikan Ryu, and Kumogakure Ryu is not widely taught, so information that might be used to verify them independently is sparse.

If you're really interested in digging into this, your best bet is to find people who care -- a lot. But in a Catch-22, those people tend to belong to a Takamatsuden school so you have to account for their bias. You could start by getting the Genbukan version of the story, as you'll find they contradict some of the "facts" presented by Bujinkan folks. When talking to Bujinkan folks, you could try Paul Richardson (who in my brief encounters with him, I found to be pretty straight shooting) who can be reached through his website: http://www.hanako.co.uk/. You can also try Kacem Zoughari, who has done extensive historical research. Try: http://www.heiseibudo.com/about_kacem.html

If anyone in the Booj can point you to related, extant ryu-ha, it's these two gentlemen. It's up to you to make conclusions from there.

But there's no getting away entirely from the Kool-Aid. And you might want to stock up on asprin and antacid before you try to sort this all out.

[BJMills]

You might try reposting this in the ninjutsu section of MAP. At the very least you will find a lot more people interested in the topic.

[Oniwaban]

Hi everyone.

Thank you guys for your answers and thank you for the advices, but, I am not interested in any Bujinkan propaganda. What I am looking for is about "non-Takamatsuden Ryu-ha", I mean: the other sources outside Takamatsu.

By Internet I only have found this X-kan people talking (always good) about them selves and I do not believe in their claims. I do believe that they have more than one skeleton in the closet, so that is why I am looking for another branches out of the Takamatsu thing, but I have not got any of it yet.

Do you know where can I find "non-Takamatsuden" information about Shindenfudo-ryu, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu?

Again, thank you very much.

I appreciate your contributions.

[baby_cart]

Considering there are branches of Gyokko-ryu completely unrelated to Takamatsu or the ninjers....you'd be wrong.

hmm..?

pray tell, what lineage of gyokko is it? i know a lineage separate from HATSUMI and his (former)students. but a lineage unrelated to takamatsu?

maybe what you're thinking of is shinden fudo or GYOKUSHIN...

[DerAuslander]

Ask Plazma.

[Oniwaban]

Considering there are branches of Gyokko-ryu completely unrelated to Takamatsu or the ninjers....you'd be wrong.

Hi Bodhi108.

I am looking for them but I still find nothing. That is why I think Takamatsu made-up all the thing. In add, the fact about the same Densho -paper- for Togakure-ryu and Gyokko-ryu, and the fact about that Koto-ryu was created from Gyokko-ryu basics. This are declarations from the ninjers it selves in their own X-kan web pages... That is why I wonder about...

Do you know were can I find those Takamatsu-unrelated-Gyokko-ryu branches that you mean?

Thank you very much.

[Oniwaban]

hmm..?

pray tell, what lineage of gyokko is it? i know a lineage separate from HATSUMI and his (former)students. but a lineage unrelated to takamatsu?

maybe what you're thinking of is shinden fudo or GYOKUSHIN...

Hi Baby_cart.

I believe that Takamatsu created Togakure-ryu, Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu. I am not sure about Shindenfudo-ryu but I would like to know.

About Gyokushin-ryu and Kumogakure-ryu, Hatsumi made them. It was in a time when he told to Don Draeger in a interview that he (Hatsumi) will restore the Ninjutsu history, so he (Hatsumi) became the first ninjer of the world. Shoto Tanemura says that Gyokushin-ryu and Kumogakure-ryu are "empty Ryu-ha" that all what they have into their Densho are just some words in japanese and nobody knows what they could mean.

Takamatsuden Ninjutsu? Just Togakure-ryu. And if Takamatsu made it, it will be not a 1.000 years Ryu-ha like the ninjers claims but a Gendai Budo.

The rest (Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu) just are fighting styles that he made from old styles that he could learned in China. And well, I am really not sure about Shindenfudo-ryu yet.

Do you know something about?

Thank you for your comment.

[Oniwaban]

Ask Plazma.

Hi Bodhi108.

Good idea...!

But, where and how can I find him/her?

Thank you.

[It is Fake]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51044
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27896

Read these threads. No, don't skim.

[Styygens]

But, where and how can I find him/her?

If you can find Plasma, you don't need our help researching ninjas. heh.

[plasma]

Ask Plazma.

Errr, I don't think there are non-Takamatsu branches of Gyokko-ryu or Koto-ryu. There is non X-Kan branches that comes through Ueno Takashi, but he was a student of Takamatsu. The story is they are Momochi Clan Arts, and in theory there are still decendents of that Clan in Japan, but I don't think they practice.

Now there are non Takatmatsu branches of Kukishin-ryu, Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Gikan-ryu and pretty much all the "samurai" Ryu-ha. As for the Ninja stuff, everything nowadays leads back to Takamatsu. At this point its a belief thing, if you believed he made it up, then its all made up. If you believed he learn it all from a "Toda-sensei" that he mentions, then there is your source. I don't think there is proof either way.

[Styygens]

On Bullshido, Plasma finds you!

[Oniwaban]

Errr, I don't think there are non-Takamatsu branches of Gyokko-ryu or Koto-ryu. There is non X-Kan branches that comes through Ueno Takashi, but he was a student of Takamatsu. The story is they are Momochi Clan Arts, and in theory there are still decendents of that Clan in Japan, but I don't think they practice.

Now there are non Takatmatsu branches of Kukishin-ryu, Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Gikan-ryu and pretty much all the "samurai" Ryu-ha. As for the Ninja stuff, everything nowadays leads back to Takamatsu. At this point its a belief thing, if you believed he made it up, then its all made up. If you believed he learn it all from a "Toda-sensei" that he mentions, then there is your source. I don't think there is proof either way.

Hi Plasma.

Good answer, thanks...

And yes, you are right: There is the figure of Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda but nobody knows anything about him exept what Takamatsu told, so I think he is not real. A Bujinkan Shihan named Kacem Zoughari report about a grave that he found with the name Toda in it. It could be an interesting piece of evidence but still not proving anything. It could be of any Toda member (just like talking about a John Doe thing) and there is no address, no photo, no more support evidence about the subject it self. Just speculation.

I think that Takamatsu made-up the 900-years-old-Togakure-story because the kind of Ninjutsu he made obviously was obsolete in the Meiji Era, so his best option was to show it as a classic thing, and then the Toda legend appeared.

Do you have more information about the Momochi clan? Did they have another legacy that we can know about?

What do you know about non-Takamatsuden-Shindenfudo-ryu?

Thank you.