True history of ninjitsu?

[Shawarma]

I feel deeply ashamed of posting such a noob thread, especially one on ninjas, but I would like to learn about whether modern "ninjitsu" actually has a legitimate link to ancient feudal Japanese assassins and whether these original ninjas ever really existed in the sense understood by modern pop culture.
Also, what significance does Hatsumi's ninja scrolls have? Are they actually the genuine article?

I didn't find satisfactory answers through the search function. I'm sure this has been discussed before, so if anyone could please point me to the relevant threads or posts, I'd be grateful.

[Ming Loyalist]

I feel deeply ashamed of posting such a noob thread, especially one on ninjas, but I would like to learn about whether modern "ninjitsu" actually has a legitimate link to ancient feudal Japanese assassins and whether these original ninjas ever really existed in the sense understood by modern pop culture.

no, and no.

Also, what significance does Hatsumi's ninja scrolls have? Are they actually the genuine article?

none, and no, they are not.

I didn't find satisfactory answers through the search function. I'm sure this has been discussed before, so if anyone could please point me to the relevant threads or posts, I'd be grateful.

you're welcome. there are extensive threads about this topic.

[It is Fake]

This answers the Booj questions:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=85108

[old chestnut]

There is only one true ninja scroll:

[old chestnut]

(apologies for the two posts, needed one more to post the link)

[Shawarma]

you're welcome. there are extensive threads about this topic.

And I couldn't find them through the search engine. I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to the thread discussing these claims. I recall in particular that Asia had a thing or two to say about the legitimacy of the ninja legend, but I couldn't dredge up the particular posts.

Thanks for the Bujinkan link as this elaborates on Hatsumi's scrolls a bit (Yes they're real, no, you can't see them!). I would still like some information on the existence of ancient ninjas vs white guys in pyjamas and face masks today and just how the latter came into existence.

[Jujutsuka desu]

Shawarma, I can explain in PM if you want. Because I am pretty sure a lot of these guys don't want to run over the Ninjutsu questions over and over again or see it.

[Styygens]

Shawarma; is there some reason for your interest?

[plasma]

I am pretty sure I have typed this out before but I am trying to get back into posting on Bullshido so what the hell.

When it comes to Ninjutsu what you really have is a series of esponaige tactics and related techniques that was part of numerous Ko-ryu Bujutsu schools. The few of these schools left do include a small section on Ninjutsu. It wasn't a martial art as fighting was covered in the Bujutsu elements of the school.

Now Modern day Ninjutsu is the Ko-ryu arts that are decended from the Iga and Koga Regions of Japan. While you have some arts like Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu that claim lineage to the Iga Region Momochi Clan there isn't an unbroken lineage of proof and it is not reconginzed by the Ko-ryu Governing boards. There no recognized Koga region arts either. You also have Togakure-ryu which is more a collection of "forgotten" Ninjutsu techniques put together into its own tradition circa the 1950s.

When is comes to the Bujinkan or Genbukan, really their fighting techniques are Jujutsu with some older Ninjutsu tactics and strategy left over from feudal Japan.

[Shawarma]

Interesting, Kagekaze. Thanks for spelling it out.

My interest is purely academic, seeing as I recently read an article on feudal ninjas in a magazine on history and would like to know just to what extent the non-ninja historian who wrote it was hoodwinked by Hollywood bullshit, seeing as she presented Hatsumi as being some kind of living ninja god and generally seemed to buy into the "mysterious superhuman assassin" thing too much to my liking.

A few questions I have based on that article:

1. Did ninja "clans" ever exist or is this a western pop culture invention? Were ninjas ever anything but thugs with blades or did "secret ninja societies of shadow and badass" exist?
2. Article cited numerous ninjer weapons including wall-scaling gloves, kunai, fighting claws and choke-chain lassos. Do these weapons have any historical basis or were they developed in recent times for their coolness factor?
3. Did widespread ninjitsu training in Japan actually take place before the 80ies ninja craze and widespread commercialisation by the Bujinkan? How much has movie portrayal of ninjas influenced the practise of modern ninjitsu?
4. I believe it has been mentioned previously that the Bujinkan is regarded as somewhat of a joke in Japan. Are any of the other schools regarded more favourably or is the whole style seen by the Japanese as a cultural curiosity you export to stupid westerners but don't take seriously yourself?

Trying to seperate fact from fiction using the internet is next to impossible in this age of Naruto. I think a "historical ninja reality vs Hollywood modern myths" thread might be in order if someone in the know could be arsed to write it. Might deter some of the sillier ninja teenagers coming to the site to defend their lethal assassination art.

[plasma]

1. Did ninja "clans" ever exist or is this a western pop culture invention? Were ninjas ever anything but thugs with blades or did "secret ninja societies of shadow and badass" exist?

Yes and no. There were was Iga and Koga area families that some claim to have those roots, but I don't believe there is any solid "proof" they were being hired out for esponiage or assassination. What is more likely is among each lord's samurai were groups dedicated to these tasks are per any ancient or modern military unit.

2. Article cited numerous ninjer weapons including wall-scaling gloves, kunai, fighting claws and choke-chain lassos. Do these weapons have any historical basis or were they developed in recent times for their coolness factor?

Shuko or the climbing claws were a tool of infiltration as they helped people climb castle walls. Kunai were farming trowels, not really sharp but useable if someone was impersonating a farmer. Fighting chains are used throughout Ko-ryu Bujutsu

3. Did widespread ninjitsu training in Japan actually take place before the 80ies ninja craze and widespread commercialisation by the Bujinkan? How much has movie portrayal of ninjas influenced the practise of modern ninjitsu?

Not really. In fact its still not popular in Japan. 99% people who study it are Gaijin. Hatsumi didn't even push the Ninja aspect until he saw Stephen Hayes raking in the $$ after training for only 1 week.

4. I believe it has been mentioned previously that the Bujinkan is regarded as somewhat of a joke in Japan. Are any of the other schools regarded more favourably or is the whole style seen by the Japanese as a cultural curiosity you export to stupid westerners but don't take seriously yourself?

Any Ninjutsu that is taken seriously by the Japanese are sections of legit Ko-ryu Bujutsu. Outside of that, they think its very silly.

[Styygens]

My interest is purely academic, seeing as I recently read an article on feudal ninjas in a magazine on history and would like to know just to what extent the non-ninja historian who wrote it was hoodwinked by Hollywood bullshit, seeing as she presented Hatsumi as being some kind of living ninja god and generally seemed to buy into the "mysterious superhuman assassin" thing too much to my liking.

Like Plasma, I typed out a long response along the same lines. But I didn't click "post" because it has all been said before.

Yeah, a lot of "history" articles on ninja that appear in the West are contaminated by Booj ideas and perpetuate many myths. If you repeat something often enough, it takes on the aura of truth. And for that reason, I don't think a "myth versus reality" thread would deter any ninjer (tween, teen, or supposed adult) from defending their faith.

The other problem is that "reality" isn't firmly defined. "Ninja" is a relatively recent catch-all term used to retroactvely describe Japanese feudal period spies, saboteurs, and "commandos." There were many different terms used at the time that describe different roles and responsibilities. While it is possible to point with some certainty at the existence of spies and troops engaged in unconventional military activities, it might not be easy to agree on which of them really count as "ninja" in the sense modern pop culture uses the term. Is the castle steward who sells secrets he overhears a ninja? Is the agent handler who buys the secrets a ninja? Is the samurai officer who collects intelligence from a network of agents and handlers a ninja? Is the samurai who engages in a stealthy raid to penetrate a besieged castle a ninja? What about an ashigaru who patrols and ranges the frontier of his daimyo's domain to protect against bandits, is he a ninja?

[SpamN'Cheese]

1. Did ninja "clans" ever exist or is this a western pop culture invention? Were ninjas ever anything but thugs with blades or did "secret ninja societies of shadow and badass" exist? .

"Ninja clans" didn't exist perse. They were samurai families who also practised and specialized in ninjutsu. In other words, they were samurai or ashigaru who were hired to be spies for their lord. The first proto-ninja were groups of samurai called akuto that basically murdered and robbed eachother. Iga and Koka were full of these samurai, who owned most of the land, and these two groups were so good at ninjutsu because they used it on one another.

2. Article cited numerous ninjer weapons including wall-scaling gloves, kunai, fighting claws and choke-chain lassos. Do these weapons have any historical basis or were they developed in recent times for their coolness factor?

A lot of these "ninja weapons" were, once again, samurai weapons and were commonly used. The idea of ninja only using hidden weaponry comes from Yumio Nawa, the last grandmaster of Masaki ryu. Not saying ninja wouldn't use these, I'm just saying that these weren't strictly "ninja weapons".

3. Did widespread ninjitsu training in Japan actually take place before the 80ies ninja craze and widespread commercialisation by the Bujinkan? How much has movie portrayal of ninjas influenced the practise of modern ninjitsu?

The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu has ninjutsu in its curriculum, and so do many schools of heiho. Many "ninja families", being apart of the warrior class, taught ninjutsu along with their family's school of martial arts. Movie portrayal has influenced modern ninjutsu A LOT, which is another reason to look at modern schools with apprehension.

4. I believe it has been mentioned previously that the Bujinkan is regarded as somewhat of a joke in Japan. Are any of the other schools regarded more favourably or is the whole style seen by the Japanese as a cultural curiosity you export to stupid westerners but don't take seriously yourself?

For the most part, yes. Seeing as ninjutsu was NOT a martial art, anyone who dresses up like a stereotypical ninja and teaches ninjutsu as a martial art is a laughing stock in Japan.

Trying to seperate fact from fiction using the internet is next to impossible in this age of Naruto. I think a "historical ninja reality vs Hollywood modern myths" thread might be in order if someone in the know could be arsed to write it. Might deter some of the sillier ninja teenagers coming to the site to defend their lethal assassination art.

Not at all. Most of my knowledge on ninjutsu and Japanese history came from internet. Just gotta know where to look. The Iga 49 Ninja Stories site is pretty good for Iga ninja history, and it's compiled by the cities of Iga and Nabari. (Nabari was once apart of Iga province.)

[BJMills]

This is a really good book on the subject if you're interested:

http://www.amazon.com/Ninjutsu-Invis.../dp/0804815976

[slamdunc]

Seeing as ninjutsu was NOT a martial art, anyone who dresses up like a stereotypical ninja and teaches ninjutsu as a martial art is a laughing stock in Japan.

This statement is pretty much a summary of my view on this subject. Like many other things that once were and had a useful purpose, they became obsolete and ceased to exist.
I worked out with a Taijutsu practitioner in Florida, and his martial arts were spot-on. He wasn't delusional, though; he knew to separate the kabuki and hocus pocus from his training. He claimed Taijutsu and not ninjitsu, although he referenced it and gave credit.