Seisuikan Ninjutsu

[shinobi b]

sorry to ask but how do you accurately know that there are no styles teaching true koga ryu ninjutsu/ninjitsu. My style is seisuikan ninjutsu/ninjitsu its origins are tied with jujitsu and ninjutsu so can you please explain to me how my ryu can be seen as "fake". Bujinkan incorporates jujitsu in to its teachings so does that mean that schools who imitate that concept are "fake" or not legitimate? Can you please elaborate your point to me instead of stating opinions found on other bujinkan websites passed from teacher to teacher or teacher to school

[DerAuslander]

sorry to ask but how do you accurately know that there are no styles teaching true koga ryu ninjutsu/ninjitsu. My style is seisuikan ninjutsu/ninjitsu its origins are tied with jujitsu and ninjutsu so can you please explain to me how my ryu can be seen as "fake". Bujinkan incorporates jujitsu in to its teachings so does that mean that schools who imitate that concept are "fake" or not legitimate? Can you please elaborate your point to me instead of stating opinions found on other bujinkan websites passed from teacher to teacher or teacher to school

Re-read this thread and educate yourself about how the Japanese martial arts are actually structured.

[It is Fake]

Can you please elaborate your point to me instead of stating opinions found on other bujinkan websites passed from teacher to teacher or teacher to school

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96931

Read this carefully. C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y. It is specifically speaking to posters like you.

[shinobi b]

Re-read this thread and educate yourself about how the Japanese martial arts are actually structured.

sorry to say but this does NOT educate me or anyone else of how Japanese martial arts are structured, sadly i find this is from a bujinkan students perspective, i am looking for a specific explanation not that of someones bias opinion on martial arts, by dis crediting someones style.

[Styygens]

sorry to ask but how do you accurately know that there are no styles teaching true koga ryu ninjutsu/ninjitsu. My style is seisuikan ninjutsu/ninjitsu its origins are tied with jujitsu and ninjutsu so can you please explain to me how my ryu can be seen as "fake". Bujinkan incorporates jujitsu in to its teachings so does that mean that schools who imitate that concept are "fake" or not legitimate? Can you please elaborate your point to me instead of stating opinions found on other bujinkan websites passed from teacher to teacher or teacher to school

Shinobi b --

The FAQ was written by a Bullshido mod who was not a member of the Bujinkan, but rather he was a former Genbukan member and is highly critical of Bujinkan claims. You need to re-read the FAQ and compare it to common information found online about the Bujinkan.

If you are interested in Bullshido's review of the evidence regarding the Bujinkan's historical claims, you should use the search function. There are dozens of threads that test the evidence.

You'll want to review one of the other stickies regarding people who make claims their ninjutsu lineage goes back to before the Meiji Resotration:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96931

I'll save you some trouble and quote part of the relevant text for you about Koga Ryu (but you shouldn't ignore reading the rest of that thread!):

In regards to Koga Ryu, the summary version of the generally accepted Bullshido view is this: Fujita Seiko was the last person to claim a Koga Ryu lineage who was generally accepted by the martial arts community in Japan. He took on no ninjutsu students, and left no heir. He publicly stated "ninjutsu would die with him." I should note that there are some interesting gaps in his own claims. In recent years, a man named Kawakami came forward claiming to have a Koga Ryu lineage. His claim is apparently accepted by the Iga Ninja Museum; however, Bullshido members have noted some bias issues with this institution. On the other hand, he has demonstrated in front of and been questioned by knowledgable koryu experts and they were intrigued. But they did not go so far as to say Kawakami had convinced them his claims were legit.

Of the various groups in the United States claiming Koga Ryu lineage... Whatever it is they may be practicing or skill level they have, we do not believe there is any link to legit Koga Ryu and they haven't proven any.

I don't see anywhere in the FAQ post where it is claimed your art is "fake." If you are interested in establishing that Seisuikan Ninjutsu is a legitimate ninjutsu ryu you must provide us with solid, independently verifiable evidence. Several people have asked to see more information about the system in your Newbietown thread. If you are unable to provide solid, independently-verifiable evidence in the JMA sub-forum, we would still be interested in having a polite discussion of your experience in Newbietown.

[shinobi b]

thank you for elaborating, i found it helpful, i would just like to say genbukan has strong ties with bujinkan, and the reason i was asking about legitimacy is to see if i can prove if the style i studied was legitimate and or how can someone prove other wise, i will look at the link.

[Styygens]

thank you for elaborating, i found it helpful, i would just like to say genbukan has strong ties with bujinkan...

This depends on the your perspective.

Yes, they are both related. Both claim links to Takamatsu, thus they are sometimes referred to as Takamatsuden, or more familiarly as X-kans. The Jinenkan is another related art. So is Toshindo. And there are a handful of other splinter groups that all, at some point, relate back to Bujinkan.

However, there is little love lost between Genbukan and Bujinkan. Many of Hatsumi's claims are undercut by Genbukan counterclaims. There are so many claims, stories, anecdotes, unproven historical tidbits, documents, artifacts, etc., about Bujinkan -- and by extension the other X-Kans -- that I once saw the effort to makes sense of it all referred to as "Untangling the Takamatsuden Spaghetti." That's an appropriate image, and neatly sums up my experience with the material.

Generally, Plasma's FAQ is a very good summary of the sense that can be made when you scratch the surface. I wouldn't dream of disputing any of it. But I recognize that his Genbukan background creates a certain bias too. Also, if you do scratch further than the surface layer, you're still left with complicated, nagging questions; at least, I am...

None of that changes the fact that no compelling, independently-verifiable proof has emerged tracing Togakure Ryu (which is the long pole in the tent of Bujinkan ninjutsu lineage claims) back further than Takamatsu himself. I (and believe it or not, others on this site) would love to see proof that a ninjutsu ryu continues to exist, but it hasn't emerged.

And that is the ultimate issue: Bullshido asks for some objective proof. It is not so much the Bullshido community's responsibility to disprove as it is the responsibility of a Bujinkan (or any ninjutsu ryu) adovcate to prove the claims. The advocate is the one making the claim, and presumably the one in the best position to provide corroborating evidence.

At this point in time, Hatsumi seems disinclined to offer up additional proof, so I doubt any of his students can either. There is much speculation about his motives, but it is all just speculation. We may all have to wait for the next inheritor of the Takamatsuden material for another bite at the proverbial apple.

[plasma]

*Culled from the Bujinkan FAQ*

[Gezere]

sorry to ask but how do you accurately know that there are no styles teaching true koga ryu ninjutsu/ninjitsu. My style is seisuikan ninjutsu/ninjitsu its origins are tied with jujitsu and ninjutsu so can you please explain to me how my ryu can be seen as "fake". Bujinkan incorporates jujitsu in to its teachings so does that mean that schools who imitate that concept are "fake" or not legitimate? Can you please elaborate your point to me instead of stating opinions found on other bujinkan websites passed from teacher to teacher or teacher to school

If your are claims to teach Koga Ryu ninjutsu it is fake. The ONLY way you can prove your school is legit is if you can show documentations of a continuous linage from the founder to present. The "its a secret ninja art" thing won't cut it. Many legitimate schools have "secret" elements (ie not shown to outsiders) but they can document a continuous lineage.

As for jujutsu it is a blanket term that covered most close quarters combat. Jutaijutus, Taijutsu, koppo, torite, etc can all be classified as JJ. In the Bujinkan only 3 of the 9 schools are "ninjutsu" the rest teach what would be considered under the term JJ.

[Jim_Jude]

sorry to ask but how do you accurately know that there are no styles teaching true koga ryu ninjutsu/ninjitsu....

Koga Ryu is MOST UNFORTUNATELY a dead art. Car accidents can do that when too many masters ride together. I personally wish it wasn't true but it is.
Automobiles seem to be a legitimate threat to traditional martial arts. Hell, cars are one of the reasons that Hatsumi doesn't travel with his scrolls since recently (I mean within the last couple decades) a Japanese master lost all of his densho when a taxi cab drove off with one of his bags.

[shinobib2]

wow you were right, i found my teacher's,teacher,teacher and it turns out that the art is dwelled in secrecy seisuikan's roots are so deep in japan,only thing is that it involves more then ninjutsu,it involves aikijutsu, jujitsu,ninjutsu,and tons more. the great grandmaster, is amazing so inspiring enlighting, fast skilled. I would never doubt the origin or the art of seisuikan ninjutsu

[SpamN'Cheese]

wow you were right, i found my teacher's,teacher,teacher and it turns out that the art is dwelled in secrecy seisuikan's roots are so deep in japan,only thing is that it involves more then ninjutsu,it involves aikijutsu, jujitsu,ninjutsu,and tons more. the great grandmaster, is amazing so inspiring enlighting, fast skilled. I would never doubt the origin or the art of seisuikan ninjutsu

I hope you're being sarcastic...