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The revised origin of Wing Chun

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    #16
    1) Cheung Ng brought his skills to Fatshan during the reign of Yung Cheng. This was forty to fifty years before the reign of Kin Lung (1736-1795). It was almost a hundred years before the legend of Yim Wing Chun, which fell within the Ham Fung (1851-1861) and Dao Kwong (1821-1850) years.
    This is new prospect. Wonder if there's any historical documentation.

    2) Tan sau is a technique unique to Wing Chun. Cheung Ng was famous for his tan sau. Cheung Ng actually taught martial arts in Fatshan Hung Suen (Red Boat). And Fatshan was the breeding ground of Wing Chun.
    tan sao unique to WC? does he realize that there's not many ways of doing a block with the palm facing up and the arm moving upwards/to the side? plenty of other chinese martial arts do this...

    3) Some years ago, my Kung Fu clansman Pang Kam Fat told me that the Wing Chun stance is best used on boats for stability. Looking further, the various sets of martial arts strokes and practice areas are closely related to practice on narrow boats.
    This sounds alot like "TKD has kicks because in ancient Korea they had to kick off bandits off horses" or some junk like that. Associating purpose of technique to ancient artifacts is purely correlative at best.

    4)Before the skills were handed down to Leung Jan, the people connected, including Leung Lan Kwai, 'Painted Face Kam', Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tei, all belonged to the Hung Suen (Red Boat).
    I feel this is probably his strongest point, albeit still correlative at best and not a direct concrete link, but it's better than stories about Yim Wing Chun. As much as I'd like to believe in an uber hottie with the ultimate martial arts skill, we all know that's some poor ancient chunner's wet dream.

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      #17
      Originally posted by EternalRage
      This is new prospect. Wonder if there's any historical documentation..
      Is there any historical documentation regarding Ng Mui teaching Yim Wing Chun??

      Originally posted by EternalRage
      tan sao unique to WC? does he realize that there's not many ways of doing a block with the palm facing up and the arm moving upwards/to the side? plenty of other chinese martial arts do this....
      I agree - I am sure that there are some schools of Tai Chi that do somethig similar to a tan sao

      Originally posted by EternalRage
      This sounds alot like "TKD has kicks because in ancient Korea they had to kick off bandits off horses" or some junk like that. Associating purpose of technique to ancient artifacts is purely correlative at best..
      I disagree. If you spend your days farming boats and standing on them, you start thinking about stances. It's similar to when I get the train to work. I always try to adopt my stance to counter the effects of inertia.

      It is wholly possible that the stance was adpoted through this

      Originally posted by EternalRage
      I feel this is probably his strongest point, albeit still correlative at best and not a direct concrete link, but it's better than stories about Yim Wing Chun. As much as I'd like to believe in an uber hottie with the ultimate martial arts skill, we all know that's some poor ancient chunner's wet dream.
      To be honest, I would rather have an art with no past. The stories of Yim Wing Chun are good to inspire females into taking up the art but that's about it.

      Someone once told me that wing chun was devised by a monk who was watching a snake fight a crane. The crane was using big movements with its wing to deflect the snake (like bong sao) and the snake was moving its whole body to avoid the crane's beak. It's nice to believe this thing, but I expect that the truth is a bit simpler (some guy just came up with it!)

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        #18
        exactly. Maybe the guy who does all the writing for wheeties boxes made it up for your morning entainment?? .... see 'that's' plausible. ;)

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          #19
          Originally posted by Blooming lotus
          exactly. Maybe the guy who does all the writing for wheeties boxes made it up for your morning entainment?? .... see 'that's' plausible. ;)
          Ah but were Wheeties around in the 16th century??

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            #20
            I have heard both stories and was unsure as to which one was true. Thanks for what I believe to be clarity on the subject.

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              #21
              Another way to look at this is that maybe, because this is somewhat a macho society we live in, this new "history of Wing Chun" could simply be a way to take credit away from women and give to the men, just a thought.

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                #22
                Originally posted by Kamon Guy
                Exactly. But what I am questioning is did Ng Mui really build it herself or was it shown to her as part of the Shaolin system. I have heard that when the Emperor destroyed the Shaolin temples only a few monks escaped, and Ng was one of them. Therefore there might have been a lineage before her
                That's the way I understand it to be with regard to triad family history except that it really wasn't called wingchun until after the temple raizing and was re-introduced ( ?) elsewhere later ....... like the hung suen ...

                I think alot of the conflict comes from the fact that the 5 elders were from shaolin and yet Wing chun is known as a daoist system. ....

                I still personally believe from my research that the system was practiced earlier by the triad family , but this link http://home.cwru.edu/casekungfu/kungfu.html gives a good explaination of how that came to be at the temple and where exactly the two married and even how hung gar and the triad family comes into the same equation .......


                According to this link, the story is just slightly different and Wing chun conception is attributed to the abbot Jee Shin, but with credits to Ng Mui. All the same pieces are there and I think that it's just been put together over time in varying pieces including or omitting this or that, but all saying the same thing ....... providing you have the other bits.

                Then this link http://www.wingchun.com.vn/lichsu/Tua_phaheVXVN_e.htm ties Chueng Ng to Ng mui and to Vietnam and also to Yip Man / Ip chun making reference to Chueng Ng, putting 'him' at the shaolin temple supposedly 1 yr after Ng Mui ,the red boat , the cantonese opera and talks about the boats and the stance developement and purpose.

                There's also this , http://www.shaolin-society.co.uk/His.../wing_chun.php that though directly contradictory on it's own, puts Chueng Ng at the temple at the same time Ng Mui was there in other accounts, and still correlates with the rest of the tale nonetheless. .. because he was also there at the raizing and instead fled north to become a shaolin monk before he went south and joined the anti-manchu rebel secret society.... like the ones that hid and supported the fleeing monks .......... who like the anti-manchurians, enjoyed a freedom to practice peacefully during the Ming ... who also killed Chuengs family.

                Again, together a little muddled but between them , but all the pieces there and match.

                If nothing else a good story, and entertaining read so check it out and enjoy.

                cheers
                Blooming Lotus
                Last edited by Blooming lotus; 12/12/2005 9:24am, .

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                  #23
                  Go read the link I provided. Tan Sau Ng is in the record book of the history of Fatsuan, living in the wrong time period.

                  "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
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                    #24
                    This is such BS! Ok Tan sau NG was not credited for starting the Red opera! He was credited for starting the movement that later became the red opera. This can all be noted outside of wing chun's history! Check out some of the chinese opera history.

                    I have to admit when I first heard this I did not want to let go of my Shaw brothers kung fu flick image of a women leaving shaolin to teach yim wing chun. But then the real world tells me that there was no women in the shaolin monistary back then. plus why would a nun risk her life and others life to teach some girl. I mean really come on!

                    Ok really who cares which story is true. Both say that it comes from shaolin. Hell I don't care if fedex delivered or UPS as long as I recieve my package who gives a rats ass? I have used what I know defending myself and as a security guard. So it doesn't matter if someone proves to me that my sifu made my style up I don't care it works for me!

                    So the next time someone says I have the origins of wing chun. We need to ask Ok that fine now what the hell are you going to with it and how can it help me? Dead horse gents it's a fucking dead horse!

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                      #25
                      I find it entirely unbelievable a woman invented the art considering their lack of ANYTHING at that time. They were born and married off - no time for learning kung fu. It's completely unplausible. Or implausible.

                      Still makes a good kid's story.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by Xiangfei
                        I find it entirely unbelievable a woman invented the art considering their lack of ANYTHING at that time. They were born and married off - no time for learning kung fu. It's completely unplausible. Or implausible.

                        Still makes a good kid's story.

                        Obviously, you have no idea who are the Hakka.
                        Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
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                          #27
                          ignorance will be ignoarance and whatdyou do ??? In lieu of real information, whatever you want to believe 'll just fine. ;) l-)

                          Btl
                          Last edited by Blooming lotus; 2/08/2006 5:44pm, .

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                            #28
                            To look into the origins of wing chun involves also looking into the various white crane lineages. Many martial arts historians view wing chun as a sub-division of crane boxing.

                            A martial arts historian named 蘇瀛漢 (Su Ying Han) did a fairly in depth piece for Taiwan Wu Lin magazine a couple of years back. In that article he talks about how 梁贊 (Liang Zan, born in 1862) brought together material from both 梁博儔Liang Bo Chou (on the Wing Chun side) and 梁二娣Liang Er Di (on the White Crane side) and merged the two into the lineage which Yip Man is part of.

                            If you have seen, for example, Taiwanese Crane Boxing, it is apparent that there is considerable overlap between the systems of Crane Boxing and Wing Chun. There is also geographical overlap. The county of Yong Chen (aka Wing Chun) was home to a number of well known Crane Boxers as well as Wing Chun people.

                            Oh, and by the way, none of this has anything to do with the Southern Shaolin Temple. It really is past time for people to grow up and grow out of the Shaolin nonsense.

                            Take care,
                            Brian

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by brianlkennedy
                              To look into the origins of wing chun involves also looking into the various white crane lineages. Many martial arts historians view wing chun as a sub-division of crane boxing.
                              Interesting. From the crane forms in Wuzuquan, I see a resemblance in the opening form where the hands push out and spin around the wrists, from a southern horse stance.
                              52 blocks documentary: arrived

                              "Joe Lauzon looks like a quiet, Internet guy..." -- Dana White

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                                #30
                                a very intresting read, i enjoyed this very much. the origins of Wing Chun maybe lost , but the stories will hold true, and we should always learn from history.

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