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Fang Shen Do: Sordid History

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    So you did my blue joke make you see red?

    --J.D.
    Why yes, I still have sand in my vagina! It is because I am a lying cowardly child who got buttfucked by MEANIE Doctor X! I also do not know the Latin and it makes me cry!!--Phrost

    Comment


      Quebec Corporations Database

      This is a long post, but provides a lot of information. Anyone can verify at
      https://ssl.req.gouv.qc.ca/slc0140_eng.htmlIMMATRICULATION : 1996-08-121996-08-28 1996-08-1221ST CENTURY KUNG-FU 1996-08-12 EN VIGUEURIMMATRICULATION : 1996-08-121996-08-2821ST CENTURY KUNG-FU 1996-08-12 EN VIGUEUR
      "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't fuck with me!"

      Comment


        I have only just started reading through this thread. I am only up to page 11. I saw the post about sJP with the broken cigarette. He had business cards in the Catherine Street location that claimed he could help people stop smoking. THere were many other claims on the card but I can not remember them off the top of my head. Perhaps if there is a current FSD student reading this you could pick up one of those cards and share with us the wonderous feats that sJP can do. They were all using the neuro-linguitic programming techniques that he supposedly has.

        Among the many seminars that are offered through FSD there was one that was supposed to help you to live longer. I believe it was called the anti-aging seminar. Sijo was also supposed to be creating a nutrition seminar, though I do not know if he ever did that or not. I spoke with three people who attended the anti-aging seminar. They were VERY upset. One guy called it the biggest waste of money he had ever been a part of. The seminar boiled down to one thing, according to the three guys: breathe more. That was it.

        Sijo has also had women's self-defence seminars, road rage seminars (what to do when someone attacks you while youa re in your car from what I have seen), and was supposed to be developing a seminar to eliminate back pain.

        I hope this stuff fits in with the history thread.

        Comment


          I remember the add for the Anti-aging seminar. It boasted, "Immortality may be possible!"

          Cripes!

          Does anyone have copies of the FSD calendars? They are pure gold, and name and describe all of the seminars. It is really a time-table of disaster.

          Comment


            Calender

            Here's the front of the calendar
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            with closer scan of the text
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            and the seminar list from the back.
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            Doesn't list the glass walking (occurred Feb), or the firewalk in May. (taken from the individual month lists within -- may be more but I haven't gone though it).
            Last edited by TheDingo; 5/10/2006 6:22pm, .

            Comment


              Dingo, those prices are amazing. And is that man giving me the finger?
              Originally posted by sJP
              You wont experience what you're
              learning in class anywhere else
              That says it all.
              "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't fuck with me!"

              Comment


                Originally posted by Askari
                Dingo, those prices are amazing. And is that man giving me the finger?

                That says it all.
                Actually when I was handed the calender I was told to double the prices on the back -- didn't know if the person was joking or not.....

                Comment


                  "I have studied and mastered many forms of Chinese, Indian, and Japanese martial arts"

                  Have you Jacques? Please elaborate. From where I'm standing, it looks like you just changed the name of Wing Chun Do, to Fang Shen Do. :headbang: Enlighten me.

                  Comment


                    Well, "Wing" is Chinese, "Do" is Japanese and . . . and . . . and . . . he recognizes India on a map if it is labeled.

                    --J.D.
                    Why yes, I still have sand in my vagina! It is because I am a lying cowardly child who got buttfucked by MEANIE Doctor X! I also do not know the Latin and it makes me cry!!--Phrost

                    Comment


                      Damn, $500 for a three day seminar with sJP! That's almost a steal unless you realize you can train with UFC/Pride/Sport Figh/AFC/IFL/ADCC (am I missing anything?) ranked and tested fighters for less than that! Hell some gyms will only charge you the drop in fee to get on the matt. I've heard a Gracie club in CA is like that, regardless of who's teaching.

                      TKD

                      THIS IS NOT AN EXIT


                      "Ladies and gentlemen, the pilot has instructed everyone to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up." Henry Rollins

                      Comment


                        $199.00 for a kubaton class? Unless it includes juggling 3 or more kubatons at the same time, I'll pass. Everything worthwhile to do with a kubaton can be shown in 20 minutes, max

                        Comment


                          corrections

                          As a former Fang Shen Do student, I would like to clarify certain things about the system. First of all,I must say that if I am a FORMER student, it is because of the costs related to a membership. As a university student, I simply could not afford to stay in the school. I was often frustrated because I could not afford the different seminars and special programs such as the weapons program. I also agree that often, the instructor's approach towards other disciplines was very negative and sometimes made me uncomfortable. I agree that there are some hardcore "Kool-aid drinkers" within the school who would crucify anyone who dared question our Sifu.

                          However, I do not regret my experience. I have learned a lot during those classes. I can assure anyone that what you learn with Fang shen do is applicable in real life. I've had unfortunately many occasions to test my skills in the past years and what I have learned with Fang Shen Do was very useful. Training included a lot of physical conditionning which is very useful in any self-defense situation.

                          My instructor's approach was always very practical and it was always clear that the drills we did were only guidelines and not rules to follow. I learned a variety of techniques and it was always made clear by my instructors that I would choose the techniques that would work for me and that they were simply tools that I would have to learn how to use in a real situation.

                          Also, I would never question Sijo Jacques Patenaude's or any of the sifu's abilities as teachers or martial artists. I learned so many things from them that proved so useful in the past years that I could not believe it to be bullshit.

                          About the Fang Shen Do Cult.
                          In all the years I was a member, I never felt like I was in a cult. I never thought it was out of place to bow to my instructor, and I still don't. Also, if we all echoed the instructor's count during drills or exercises, it was to create an atmosphere, a unity. The energy in the gym during these exercices was simply amazing. Fang Shen Do is closer to being a family than a cult.

                          Sparring
                          Yes, the sparring aspect of fang shen do can seem quite scary or extreme. My first sparring experience was quite scary at first. However, Sifu never allowed me or any other students to get hurt or to receive a beating from a more advanced student.

                          One last thing, I have been in the training camp, and there was never, ever anything to do with dog shit.

                          I hope this clarifies certain things about Fang Shen Do. Yes it is too expensive, but the training is definitely worth the time.

                          Comment


                            Welcome to the forums . . . two drink minimum.

                            Originally posted by broke
                            I was often frustrated because I could not afford the different seminars and special programs such as the weapons program. I also agree that often, the instructor's approach towards other disciplines was very negative and sometimes made me uncomfortable. I agree that there are some hardcore "Kool-aid drinkers" within the school who would crucify anyone who dared question our Sifu.
                            These concessions, particularly the first, undercut the claims you then offer as "corections" to the statement made by many current and former students.

                            Also, I would never question Sijo Jacques Patenaude's or any of the sifu's abilities as teachers or martial artists.
                            Unfortunately his and their own words and videos posted HERE call his and their abilities into serious question. You impression--honest though it may be--does not change that. You concede the manner in which they unjustly denigrate other styles and practitioner.

                            I learned so many things from them that proved so useful in the past years that I could not believe it to be bullshit.
                            What one believes is not the standard of reality. If it was, I would be too busy keeping Nicole Kidman happy. What is "useful?" Under "what conditions?" Many of these issues have been explained in this and the other threads. One major criticism has stemmed around the pattern--exibited by "sifus" HERE--of challenging critics to fights only to make excuses and/or disappear when called on it. Another major criticism is the refusal to test the system. Fine. Not everyone wants to or needs to be a professional fighter. Yet these people try to advertise themselves as better that others. Many other posters with actual experience have offered suggestions for FSD proponents to prove the system.

                            In all the years I was a member, I never felt like I was in a cult.
                            Cult members never do. Yet you describe some of the elements of a cult above, and you confess an inability to criticise the upper eschelon--despite the behavior of them as demonstrated in these threads.

                            I never thought it was out of place to bow to my instructor, and I still don't. Also, if we all echoed the instructor's count during drills or exercises, it was to create an atmosphere, a unity.
                            This is a fallacy--no one has argued against showing respect. You have created an irrelevant argument to "correct." You need to address the actual criticisms.

                            The energy in the gym during these exercices was simply amazing.
                            As it is in gyms and dojos all over the world. Sweat does not justify the behavior detailed in these threads.

                            Yes, the sparring aspect of fang shen do can seem quite scary or extreme.
                            I am unaware of anyone describing the sparing aspect as either "scary" or "exteme." On the contrary, critics have questions the realism and utility. Former and current students have criticised the lack of sparing. One again, you are "correcting" a criticism not actually made.

                            One last thing, I have been in the training camp, and there was never, ever anything to do with dog shit.
                            Yet has this incident been corroborated by more than one student who was there. You, on the other hand, admit to not attending camps do to the cost. How, then, do you know it did not happen? Why is your belief more trustworthy than those who claim to have seen it and can comment on the aftermath. I would also direct your attention to the apology for the incident offered by a "sifu" on the other thread. If it did not happen, why try to justify it?

                            I hope this clarifies certain things about Fang Shen Do. Yes it is too expensive, but the training is definitely worth the time.
                            I am afraid you will need to provide more concrete information to support that contention, particularly in face of the mass of contrary evidence. Quite a few posters have pointed to far less expensive and far more effective schools.

                            Now, if it helped you, if you enjoyed it, very well. Yet, you have not experienced--based on your posts--the alternatives. Nevertheless, the critical fault is that the leaders advertise one thing, but deliver another. They claim supremacy.

                            Claims require evidence.

                            --J.D.
                            Why yes, I still have sand in my vagina! It is because I am a lying cowardly child who got buttfucked by MEANIE Doctor X! I also do not know the Latin and it makes me cry!!--Phrost

                            Comment


                              Once again, I must say, I agree with you that certain things are being said and done in Fang Shen Do that I do not agree with. I do not agree with any claims of supremacy they have made, I do not believe in supremacy.

                              As for my martial arts background, before joining Fang Shen Do, I trained in Tae Kwon Do and Shoto kan Karate. Of course these MA were more tournament oriented and did help me improve on a self-defense level, FSD did.

                              I did say that often I could not pay for special programs, but I did attend a training camp, and there was no dog shit incident. The first time I heard of such a thing, was on this forum.

                              When I said I would not question my instructors abilities, I did not mean it was not aloud. I always got clear answers from any of the sifus even when I questionned the usefullness of certain drills or techniques.

                              I do concede that often some student instructors were incapable of answering my questions, seemed embarrassed and did whatever they could to change the subject or to end the conversation. That, in my opinion is probably what happened with other posters who thought they were not allowed to ask questions.

                              Also, I feel that no matter what is said on this thread, you are not going to change your mind about the so called cult.

                              About the sparring, most of it was usually, as described in the first entry of this thread, two students, with their gloves and helmet going at eachothers. How much more realism do you want?

                              As of prooving what they can do, I do admit that I often wanted to test what I had learned against other martial arts practitionners and was never given the chance. However there was an occasion where two sifus did participate in an mma match in a Wecf/Ifc event in Laval and won. It may not be enough to say that they accept challenges, but it was at least a proof they wanted to test their skills.

                              In conclusion, I don't think you really know what you are talking about until you try it. Why don't you try their free introduction class, you may not like it, but try to have an open mind about it, then you'll be able to have your own opinion wether it's a cult or if it's complete BS.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by broke
                                As for my martial arts background, before joining Fang Shen Do, I trained in Tae Kwon Do and Shoto kan Karate. Of course these MA were more tournament oriented and did help me improve on a self-defense level, FSD did.
                                Did you miss a "not" as in "did not help me improve on a self-defense level, FSD did."?

                                I do not know. There is uselessly done TKD and Shotokan certainly, but there are well done versions. I do not know what your experience is, but if you competed at all, I would not be surprised if you did not learn something about fighting. People HERE and ELSEWHERE can go over and over about how much this sparing or that sparing helps you in fighting and "t3h d34dly str33tz," but it is something. At least you are stressed and have to overcome the "chemical" dump of the flight/fight/fun/fuck response. My point with that is you may very well have had a decend foundation. If you found a way to make FSD work for you, neat.

                                However, I do not think most HERE are attacking the concept of FSD--the base style. It seems, to me, that many have written highly of DeMille and, obviously, Inosanto--if I am following the lineage. However, they have very strong opinions about what they have seen in the videos and claims made in the literature. They also find the marketing practices antithetical to martial training.

                                I did say that often I could not pay for special programs, but I did attend a training camp, and there was no dog shit incident. The first time I heard of such a thing, was on this forum.
                                You may not have seen it, but apparently enough others did--and the annonymous upper eschelon posters in one of these threads tried to defend it. I would offer that you either did not attend that seminar--and FSD seems to have a lot of seminars!--or were not in the group honored with that strong wisdom.

                                I always got clear answers from any of the sifus even when I questionned the usefullness of certain drills or techniques.
                                A few former and current FSD members have mentioned satisfaction if not admiration with a few of the teachers. Did you ever learn from the head teacher?

                                I will be frank in that I have never, ever, had a difficultly gaining access to the heads in the various organizations that teach my system. I am not important. Teachers love to teach. There seems there are barriers to learning from those who supposedly know the most about FSD.

                                I do concede that often some student instructors were incapable of answering my questions, seemed embarrassed and did whatever they could to change the subject or to end the conversation. That, in my opinion is probably what happened with other posters who thought they were not allowed to ask questions.
                                I think you would agree that they should not have been teaching and there should have been a capable instructor to clarify problems. If this was a nice inexpensive group, one could accept students learning to teach . . . less rigor . . . and all of that. However, FSD members are--as others have shown--paying premium amounts of money for lessons--often having to climb up the pyramid of a "black belt club." This is the "McDojo" aspect of FSD that concerns people. The exercises described in these groups push them into "Bullshido."

                                Also, I feel that no matter what is said on this thread, you are not going to change your mind about the so called cult.
                                My mind changes depending upon the evidence given. I recently changed my opinion about a subject based on some research. As others have noted, a very simple openess to training would change opinions. However, as I noted on the other thread, methinks, FSD as run by this organization follows the characteristics of a cult. I could be even more severe if I directed attention to the promotion of pseudoscientific nonsense described by other posters. To remove the recognition of cult, one would have to demonstrate how FSD does not fit those characteristics. The behavior of the upper eschelon could help; unfortunately, it has only made that conclusion more inescapable.

                                About the sparring, most of it was usually, as described in the first entry of this thread, two students, with their gloves and helmet going at eachothers. How much more realism do you want?
                                What you describe seems different than some others. I am not a "sparring fascist" who only considers broken teeth and loss of IQ "t3h r34l" sparing! People have to work the next day. Perhaps others can criticise that level; however, you would have to provide more information--with whom you trained, when, and all of that. You may not be comfortable doing that, I understand. My point with that is you may have trained under a decent teacher, and others could confirm that.

                                As of prooving what they can do, I do admit that I often wanted to test what I had learned against other martial arts practitionners and was never given the chance. However there was an occasion where two sifus did participate in an mma match in a Wecf/Ifc event in Laval and won.
                                IMPORTANT since I see my post is blathering. THIS claim has been examined and debunked as to the details, the level, and even the legitimacy.

                                Why were you never given the chance? You are now--according to your style section--studying Hung Gar. Do you ever "do" FSD training when you spar in Hung Gar?

                                It may not be enough to say that they accept challenges, but it was at least a proof they wanted to test their skills.
                                Yet we have not seen this evidence. Again, as others have stated, "challenges" do not have to be "Fight! To the DEATH!" crapolla. It has been the higher eschelons posting HERE who have pushed the "volume" so to write. It has been the upper eschelon that has denigrated other styles and practioners as you, yourself, concede.

                                In conclusion, I don't think you really know what you are talking about until you try it.
                                Have you ever tried trephination?

                                How about leaping from a skyscrapper without the benefit of a paracute?

                                Listening to country-western music?

                                Your complaint is not valid. My opinion is based on my knowledge and, more importantly, the reports of people who have "tried it." I have, frankly, seen this type of behavior before all too many times. You complaint would work if critics ignored evidence. They have not done that; the upper eschelons have tried to prevent its dissemination.

                                Why don't you try their free introduction class, . . .
                                I, personally, am too far away; however, there are a number of people in the area, and I believe this is being done. You will read the report of one poster who irritated quite a few by insisting he would attend classes--despite the criticisms--only to end up agreeing with them.

                                However, I am left with a question for you on this matter. NO ONE owns a style. If you have had a few years of practice, why can you not continue it on your own?

                                --J.D.
                                Why yes, I still have sand in my vagina! It is because I am a lying cowardly child who got buttfucked by MEANIE Doctor X! I also do not know the Latin and it makes me cry!!--Phrost

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