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    Originally posted by mrm1775
    Ugh. I just read the whole article, and the guy is a clown. The assertion that weapons like the M16 and AK were designed to not be aimed demonstrates that he has never qualified on a range and does not understand the proper use of such weapons. Nor does he seem to understand the utility of suppressive fire. Idiot hillbillies blazing away with their AR15s is not reason for the condemnation of that choice of weapon, just that style of shooting.

    I suspect that he is a LARPer, and possibly even a Brady Bill apologist.
    I've reacted similarly to his stuff, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me, considering these are the weapons that I was brought up with, & these are the weapons that are the most prolific if you must abandon your arsenal. The modern military rifle covers the middle range very very well, I absolutely agree, but the long gun can't be outdone at its job by an AR or an AK unless it is SEVERELY tricked out and accurized, & even then the average .223 round lacks credible stopping power at range. The AK, likewise, does it's job in the middle range, more power than the AR, less accuracy, the eternal Dilemma. What to do, what to do?
    Can the military rifle do the big .30 cal bolt gun's job? NO. Can it do the shotgun's job. Hell NO. Try to get a long gun to do the job of a pistol. Within the range for which it's designed, ain't no long gun doing the job of my .45, no way.

    I love my semi-auto long guns, but there are other guns out there, and one cannot, esp as a civilian, ignore them. Ignore the pistol, so fast to access & maneuver, so concealable, at your peril. Ignore the shotgun, with it's priceless, singular trauma inducing power at your peril. Ignore a long gun? A Fool's mistake.

    When it comes to odds, three out of four ain't bad. & they aren't COST PROHIBITIVE? I KNOW MY CHOICE.


    Kurt's Kooky, but he always makes me think...
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 11/11/2008 5:48am, .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

    Comment


      Originally posted by mrm1775
      AR's are nice, but when the world ends, you will want one of these:

      Its not as pretty, and its not as accurate, but ammo and spare parts are cheap and plentiful throughout the world and it will last you and your children the rest of your lives.

      Regardless of what you choose, though, learn how to shoot it. Actually find someone knowledgeable to teach you one-on-one (preferably military or LEO, not Jim-Bob from the trailer park) or take a course. Don't just buy a rifle and take it to the range thinking you can figure it out on your own. That's how bad habits are formed and accidents happen. All joking about The Zombiepocalypse aside, responsible gun ownership is something most of us take very seriously.

      The AR15 is a special case too. Its a good weapon as far as capabilities are concerned, but its tight tolerances and operating system make it maintenance intensive and it will only remain reliable in the hands of someone who knows how to take care of it. Best bet: find a Marine or an Army infantryman who carried one around for four years or more and ask him to show you step by step all the tricks to breaking it down and cleaning it.
      If that an AK? Sometimes I have a hard time spotting them without the wood finish and famous banana clip. I'm definitely not opposed to an AK. Any recommendations for a good source for them? Are there any decent American manufacturers? How do they compare price-wise with the AR-15?

      Now, with these military clone type rifles, are the parts for them interchangeable from one manufacturer to another? If I had a Bushmaster AR-15 can I use parts from an Armalite or Colt? How about with the different AK manufacturers?

      If I bought an AK, should I look for one chambered for 5.56, or should I stick to the original 7.92? Is either round more readily available and/or less expensive?

      Comment


        Good questions ferg. I'll defer to mrm (or the other fine people of this site) for the AK questions, because I'm interested too.

        The AR components should be interchangeable between manufacturers (or Henry Ford would be rolling in his grave... and not just because of Ford's stock prices).

        The AR is more of a precision tool than the AK. You'll have to be religious about cleaning and maintaining an AR. I sort of think of them like the AR being an epee, and the AK being a broadsword.

        Worldwide, the AK would a great choice. Locally, the AR would most likely be the best choice. I'd like to have both though. I still don't have an AK. I don't have a frame of reference to compare ammo costs.

        Has anybody here built one from an 80% blank receiver yet? And, if so, did you use a flat, or a "ready to drill" one?

        Comment


          7.62 is almost always cheaper in my experience. 1,000 rounds seems to go for around $250 right now.

          It's not necessarily a better round though, especially for making distance shots. I wouldn't really want to try to snipe someone with an AK. Maybe a Dragunov, but those shoot 7.62x54, not x39.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Phrost
            7.62 is almost always cheaper in my experience. 1,000 rounds seems to go for around $250 right now.

            It's not necessarily a better round though, especially for making distance shots. I wouldn't really want to try to snipe someone with an AK. Maybe a Dragunov, but those shoot 7.62x54, not x39.
            So it seems they are both decent mid-range weapons. The AR-15 is more accurate, better at distance shots, but high maintenance. The AK is less accurate but durable. Hmmm I hate delimmas...

            I guess though that if I went with the AK just to get my hands on as "assualt rifle" while I can then I could always pick up a good hunting rifle later for distance shooting. No hurry on that since hunting rifles will probably be the last thing they would be able to justify banning...

            Anyone know how the two styles compare in terms of retaining their monetary value?

            Comment


              Get an AK variant because they're cheaper. Try to get a Romanian SAR because they tend to be made a bit better than a lot of others.

              That's what I have:

              Comment


                I believe you mean Bulgarians are better made.

                Romanians are the bottom of the barrell. But that's quite relative. We're talking about ak variants here.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Kein Haar
                  Romanians are the bottom of the barrell. But that's quite relative. We're talking about ak variants here.
                  Does that phrase mean that AK variants are so good that even the bottom of the barrel is still a good weapon, or does that mean AK variants are so crappy that being the crappiest of the crappy isn't much of a distinction? :)

                  What's the difference between the SAR that Phrost mentioned and the WASRs?

                  Comment


                    I've paid fairly close attention to this thread but I may have missed a few pages toward the beginning, so I apologize if any of this is redundant.


                    First and foremost, you need to make sure that your firearms are SECURE.

                    I don't know what your situation is, but if you live anywhere near other people you need to have your shit stowed when you aren't around. You need a safe, and it needs to be in a closet, bolted to the wall. Before you even consider picking up a gun you need to understand that it can be stolen if you aren't careful, and if yours is stolen you've become a huge fucking liability by letting a criminal get a hold of lethal force.

                    Don't tell your friends or neighbors. Don't leave it out where people may be able to see it if unexpected company arrives. A gun is a singularly fascinating thing and most people are both ignorant of their proper handling, and to some degree scared of them. It's a bad fucking combination.


                    That said, the other people who replied are dead on. Get a scary gun now, and the other shit later. As mrm and Phrost have both stated, an AK is a good call, as would be picking up a few AR receivers.

                    I am unsure if people have mentioned the FAL. They are just as scary and black, and they come in .308. Check out the FALfiles site for more info. I have one made from a South African kit. It is very, very accurate and is cheaper than an M1A.

                    Comment


                      The Ar is high maintence? news to me.

                      These days I'm better but back in ye olden days I'd shoot 400 rounds..throw it in the closet for a few weeks...dig it out...do it again...and maybe after the third or forth time I'd get around to cleaning it.

                      On the other hand...I do recall being at a range and watching some dude and his Ak varient playing Jam-o-matic.


                      I can't anticipate any kind of serious situation that would call for me to shoot more rounds in a fire fight then my gun is capable of handling before it actually legitimately needs to be cleaned.
                      Last edited by Anna Kovacs; 11/11/2008 1:53pm, .

                      Comment


                        The only time I ever had one jam on me was while using blanks, and those are filthy. Otherwise, I spent many, many hours cleaning my weapon to the satisfaction of whomever was inspecting it. I still have my set of dental tools in my cleaning kit (good for getting the carbon in those hard to reach places). I guess just about any Marine is fairly fanatical about keeping thier weapons clean though.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Fishgod
                          Before you even consider picking up a gun you need to understand that it can be stolen if you aren't careful, and if yours is stolen you've become a huge fucking liability by letting a criminal get a hold of lethal force.
                          oh yeah, cause criminals have no way of getting guns other than stealing them from law abiding citizens.

                          that's why here in new york city, where guns are almost impossible to get via legal means, we have NO guns on the street.

                          none at all. no shooting deaths either.

                          i hear criminals complaining all the time "damn, i wish law abiding citizens could get guns here, then i could steal one, and then i'd be set!"
                          "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
                          "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
                          "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
                          "Seriously, who gives a fuck what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by AnnaTrocity
                            The Ar is high maintence? news to me.
                            These days I'm better but back in ye olden days I'd shoot 400 rounds..throw it in the closet for a few weeks...dig it out...do it again...and maybe after the third or forth time I'd get around to cleaning it.
                            That's absolutely possible. Of course, we're just talking about "range time", not "field time". They're completely different.

                            On the other hand...I do recall being at a range and watching some dude and his Ak varient playing Jam-o-matic.
                            Proof that even an AK can have problems. Machines are Machines. Loose/bad ejector, not cleaning out cosmo well enough (too anxious to get out on the range), badly fitted parts, etc. Probably the issue was too much unexperienced home-gunsmithing....

                            I can't anticipate any kind of serious situation that would call for me to shoot more rounds in a fire fight then my gun is capable of handling before it actually legitimately needs to be cleaned.
                            You "can't anticipate"? You MUST ANTICIPATE! Change that Mindset!

                            In a "Real Situation", that can be the problem. Just use your imagination. If you have prolonged use before you can do a proper breakdown & clean, even just a quick barrel & bolt group cleaning, it necessarily increases your chances of having a failure when you least expect or need it. It looks like you have a girlfriend here or there that will cover you while you're cleaning, though... Most of the historical problems with the AR have been solved by chroming, etc,
                            (well, those that can be solved within the parameters of the design...)
                            "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
                            ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

                            "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
                            ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

                            "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
                            ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Jim_Jude
                              That's absolutely possible. Of course, we're just talking about "range time", not "field time". They're completely different.
                              As a civilian I am unlikely to ever see real "field time" that requires the use of suppressive fire and move tactics. Short of having to take out my whole neighborhood...at least :) Even in a highly unlikely complete breakdown breakdown of society I really doubt anyone is going to have to fire off multiple magazines in rapid succession for an extended period of time.




                              You "can't anticipate"? You MUST ANTICIPATE! Change that Mindset!
                              Well...I am a gear queer that likes to blow big bucks on the best stuff I can afford rather then just "good enough". I certainly want my rifle to go a thousand rounds or better without needing to be cleaned and am doing what I can to make that want a reality by upgrading internal parts and doing my research ..but there is reality to take into account and I don't feel that the arguable slight reliability edge of the AK-47 trumps....everything that the AR does better.

                              In a "Real Situation", that can be the problem. Just use your imagination. If you have prolonged use before you can do a proper breakdown & clean, even just a quick barrel & bolt group cleaning, it necessarily increases your chances of having a failure when you least expect or need it. It looks like you have a girlfriend here or there that will cover you while you're cleaning, though.
                              Yep...and other guns as backup...actually my girlfriend and I have discussed doing combat shooting courses that include working with a partner and the like.

                              But really it's all for fun and so we can kick ass at airsoft.

                              If I ever have to kill my entire neighborhood I'd rather do it from several hundred yards away at my leisure with my eotech (which conveniently has a recticle that represents bullet drop up to 600 meters) and my magnifier rather then by stalking through the streets and having close quarters engagement like a soldier with a squad and an actual mission.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Kein Haar
                                I believe you mean Bulgarians are better made.

                                Romanians are the bottom of the barrell. But that's quite relative. We're talking about ak variants here.
                                SAR-1s are good, some of the others, not so much.

                                Comment

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