"Jail Yard Rush" knife attack: defenses, anyone?

[Bladesinger]

Okay, this thread just got fucking stupid really fast.

If we're all being honest, this thread got pretty stupid quite a few pages ago.

[IndoChinese]

This is one of the reasons that I think it's sometimes prudent to enter very deeply when dealing with a knife attack, esp a particularly unskilled knifer. Being inside and behind the knife hand while dealing damage prevents many of the hand changes, stripping, and counter-disarm tactics.

Once upon a time, I thought that outside was the best place to be. Now, I most certainly don't. Get in & maim and cripple...

oh, i agree 110%, being a kuntaoer. either close enough to kiss or he sees ass and elbows. no inbetween. some guys train largo, for 'safety'. doesnt make me feel safe.

[IndoChinese]

I think trying to chase the wrist AT ALL is the mark of a bad knife defense.

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absolutely, it is not the main thing to control.

[IndoChinese]

How many certified knife fighters will cops be dealing with? I would train for what I'd be encountering (statistically) if I was an LEO, which is "untrained knife attackers". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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mostly loons with butcher knives, or con or two with a sticker, i imagine.

and of course, every so often there is the occasional 'samurai', who usually ends up commiting suicide by cop.

[IndoChinese]

The purpose of the Piper is to flip out and kill people. It's the art of turbo-spazzing with a knife. Which it turns out is pretty hard to defend empty-handed.

piper uses a shitload of disengagements and reverses.

[IndoChinese]

[caseyboy]

you an LEO?

regards,

kuntaokid

yes, for around 12 years now.

[Jim_Jude]

To be perfectly honest, folks, I didn't start this thread to get into some aimless debate about the multitude of knife issues, but simply to see how people train to deal with the Jail Yard Rush scenario. Nothing more.
That being said, I've enjoyed the conversation so far, lots of opinions, everyone's got one...

[selfcritical]

usually i would cross-hand check withmy forearm, corkscrewing the arm toward his hip, bump to make space and dash out of the window. If i didn't see an exit open up immediately, i would probably slide forearm contact to the elbow, go for the two on one tie, and slide my hands into wrist control or outside elbow control. If in wrist control, I would sink my weight down, move his arm as far away from the cross hand as possible while stretching the arm out, with my head placed in the crook of his neck to get a fulcrum. From there, headbutts and kneess, work the takedown to belly-down armbar if i can.

[Jim_Jude]

usually i would cross-hand check withmy forearm, corkscrewing the arm toward his hip, bump to make space and dash out of the window. If i didn't see an exit open up immediately, i would probably slide forearm contact to the elbow, go for the two on one tie, and slide my hands into wrist control or outside elbow control. If in wrist control, I would sink my weight down, move his arm as far away from the cross hand as possible while stretching the arm out, with my head placed in the crook of his neck to get a fulcrum. From there, headbutts and kneess, work the takedown to belly-down armbar if i can.

Huh. It's STAB :tongue3:

[Phoenix]

Yes, but you said above that [B]"IMO, it is a very bad thing to train in absolutes. If you believe that an assailant would never attack you in a particular manner, you won't train for the possibility that it could happen. It causes one to train in a limited way, and that is very dangerous."

Sorry for the late reply, Jim.

I'll give you an example of what I mean when I say 'training in absolutes'. I was at a kali seminar a year or so back. I was paired up with some other guy and we were doing a type of defang drill. Basically, in the drill, the feeder comes in with a downward angle slash and as he does, the defender moves out of the way and slashes the outside of the feeder's arm. Anyway, as the instructor was going around to each group to see how everyone was catching on, he came up to my group. The guy who was feeding me was using an overhand grip on his knife (think Anthony Perkin's 'Psycho') and coming down at the angle I described. The instructor stopped us immediately and said that what we were doing was wrong because 'a trained knife fighter would never attack like that'. I politely said to him 'perhaps you're right, but I'd like to try it this way anyway'.

Where a knife is concerned, my view is simply this: It's not rocket science.

You asked me before 'What is the universal knife defense that allows you to treat all knife attackers equal?' There is no universal knife defense that does this. That's why I feel it's more important to train with concepts and principles in mind, rather than solely technique.

That aside, though....it's probably more fair to say that it's really dependent on the person, in terms of how to deal with a knife. Some people, especially those who have a strong background in grappling, would feel very comfortable going in close to a person with a knife and doing what was shown in the video. I mean...if they can pull the technique off and it works, then why the hell not?

I, personally, would not be comfortable with that, but that's just me. My training, mindset, and attitude may differ slightly or drastically from yours or anyone else's.

I dunno. I guess I'll just chalk it up to Murhpy's Law: If it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid.

But yeah....two to the chest and one to the head? That's always a good plan.

[selfcritical]

Huh. It's STAB :tongue3:

At that range yes. I prefer to make my escape at the range where knife-tapping is applicable. In application i can usually make space to take-off through the backhand window, and I do this FAR more often than going for the clinch. Particularly if I can stun after the first 1-2 guides. I think at hyper-close range there really isn't anything functional(and by hyper-close i mean shoulder to shoulder, guy is grabbing you and stabbing upward) that doesn't end up looking like greco-roman wrestling. If the prison yard rush starts at interview distance, I would generally prefer to tap and guide the weapon arm before corkscrewing it down, and stepping behind the lead leg, or pushing at the shoulder and running through the window(I always try to run PAST the knifer instead of away if I can help it.)

[selfcritical]

Note; all of this is assuming I DON"T have a weapon of my own.

[Jim_Jude]

Note; all of this is assuming I DON"T have a weapon of my own.

What style of Silat do you practice? or are you counting the Silat that contributed to Pekiti Tersia? (no disrespect, it's there & it's valid)

[selfcritical]

What style of Silat do you practice? or are you counting the Silat that contributed to Pekiti Tersia? (no disrespect, it's there & it's valid)

Most of the silat in pekiti-Tirsia is in the unarmed grappling curriculum, is very, very stripped down in how it's trained and presented. I do Mande Muda with Jagabaya Leslie buck, who was trained by Herman Suwanda(Pak Herman's family calls him "little herman"). He is also my Pekiti Tirsia instructor(His instructors, in order, are Erwin Ballarta, Leo Gaje, and Rommel Tortal).

I take Filipino boxing with larry st. clair as well(one of Ron balicki's students), and my understanding is that a lot of the clinch and groundwork therin is from the insosanto blend of maphilindo silat.