"Jail Yard Rush" knife attack: defenses, anyone?

[IndoChinese]

here a match up for you...

Piper v.s. Stab

i got a $G on Piper.

[IndoChinese]

Rhino is teh korrekt.

'stitching'/'woodpecker' is a serious problem for defense. hang it up if they use pikal (rev grip) or truncated fig. 8's....doubly so on that combined.

and if you dont grip a wrist just right, they can easily 'palm change' and cut your wrist. if they catch the brachioradialis and the tendons, your fukt.

regards,

ktk

[Ryno]

Caseyboy, the idea of getting a two on one control of the knife hand seems like a good idea, but the video that you pointed out just isn't that great, particularly when you think about the jailyard rush tactics. I'd like to see more examples of the STAB system before making judgement, but the attackers in the video seem to be going very easy, and seem to be standing knifehand side forward, making it easy for the defender to turn the corner and get the Russian tie/two handed control.

A competent knife attacker will keep the knife in the rear hand, and will grab or check you off to open a line for a sewing machine style attack. They will constantly be squaring up to you to keep you from slipping to the outside.

I just can't see how they are handling this in the video. With the angles that the attacker is taking, it looks like he is just handing the defender that entry.

[Phoenix]

Okay, I think I understand tactical repositioning, but you lost me with sensitivity, zoning, etc.

Okay, sensitivity, zoning, and line familiarization are concepts borrowed from Filipino martial arts (most notably Kali/Arnis) and incorporated into JKD Concepts. These are not concepts that are generally taught in many North American defensive tactics programs....which is very unfortunate, IMO. But keeping that in mind, I do apologize for not explaining those sooner.

Right, my first line of defense is my sidearm, preferebly from 30 plus feet away.

Agreed.

What I've seen of Hans Marerro's stuff is mostly just bjj. It has been my experience that the majority of officers do not train enough to be good in anything. When I endorse/teach something I keep in mind that it has to be reeeeeaaally simple because the fact is most cops will never practice the move again.

Again, I agree with you wholeheartedly. It sickens me to death as to how many officers in law enforcement, in my agency and others, neglect their training and simply don't spend enough time (if any) practicing their defensive tactics. Not committing to training does nothing less than a grave injustice to themselves, their families, their department, and the public. Granted, as an operational member myself, sometimes I find that I don't have as much time as I'd like to throwdown on the mats with some of my buddies. But I do make the effort, and I know others that do too.

However, I know of at least thrice that number that use the 'not enough time to train' as an excuse for not training at all. That is unacceptable.

And actually, Hans Marerro's stuff does have quite a bit of bjj in it, but it is mostly MCMAP stuff - my department uses quite a bit of his curriculum in our DT training.

You're losing me again. What is PFS or ISR Matrix and how do they teach to kill? Edit I just googled them up, give me some time to look at it.

Eye gouge vs a knife?

PFS (progressive fighting systems) is Paul Vunak's school. http://www.fighting.net.

ISR Matrix is a system with similar concepts as those taught at PFS. Here's the website: http://www.isrmatrix.org

I don't think we disagree on alot of this stuff, caseyboy....SSGT and STAB are probably very good systems. In fact, I think the concepts they teach are no different than those taught by any other LE defensive tactics program. I haven't had the chance to work with those systems, but I'm willing to wager that the principles and concepts used by those systems are no different than any other defensive tactics system worth it's salt. God knows, there's alot of them out there....Gabe Suarez, Kelly Worden, Paul Vunak, Tony Blauer....the list goes on.

I'm sure both those systems (STAB and SSGT) are fine systems.....I just had a problem with what I was seeing in that video. In my mind, trying to grapple some guy flailing a knife at me is nothing short of suicide.

Oh, and....yeah, I don't recall there being any specific killing techniques in ISR Matrix per se, but there are techniques such as eye gouging, carotid restraints, and certain striking techniques with the baton (to name a few) that are, most times, taught off the record that can be potentially lethal.

The thing is, these should be taught because there is always the possiblity that you might not be able to use your firearm when the shit hits the fan.

[Jim_Jude]

'You'd like to think so.'

aint it the truth.

Yeah, I try to keep it real. First step: I don't know everything.

I remember back in my oh-so-proud Bujinkan days, when a grizzled middle-aged Karate/Arnis instructor down on Hill street in Ocean Side asked me "What would you do if I did this?" & proceeded to gut me with a "Jail Yard Rush"-ish attack. He told me that most if not all cons are familiar with this method. I had never seen it and about pooh'd in my black gi pants.

[selfcritical]

"I think you misunderstood me. I'm not referring to avoiding the fight altogether, I'm talking about tactical repositioning. Concepts such as 'sensitivity', 'zoning', and 'line familiarization' are also applicable. That way, you can actually get to a position where you can deploy your firearm, baton, taser, etc."

Okay, I think I understand tactical repositioning, but you lost me with sensitivity, zoning, etc.

"I can understand how something like that COULD be useful, especially if you've already been attacked. But my first line of defense is not going to be to get close to the suspect, because that's exactly where he wants me to be."

Right, my first line of defense is my sidearm, preferebly from 30 plus feet away.



"I know that alot of police departments are looking at that stuff. They're also looking at that Hans Marerro crap, or some of that other stuff out there too....because police administrators feel that the techniques taught by those systems are more media and public friendly. "

What I've seen of Hans Marerro's stuff is mostly just bjj. It has been my experience that the majority of officers do not train enough to be good in anything. When I endorse/teach something I keep in mind that it has to be reeeeeaaally simple because the fact is most cops will never practice the move again.

"They don't want to teach their officers systems like PFS or ISR Matrix because some of the techniques used actually involve killing your suspect with your bare hands, if necessary. The public would react very harshly in favour of the suspect if an officer had to resort to gouging the eyes out of some crackhead, even if he was trying to shove a knife between the officer's ribs. I don't think I need to even type here what the media would do with a scenario such as that."

You're losing me again. What is PFS or ISR Matrix and how do they teach to kill? Edit I just googled them up, give me some time to look at it.

Eye gouge vs a knife?

The whole POINT of ISR matrix is to make it easier to use proportional response and train full force-on-force. I have never seen any killing moves in the curriculum.

[IndoChinese]

'So am I to assume that you use alive training?'

you win a cookie.


' Its not something that kung fu is known for.'

uhmm...depends on who is the 'knower'. but in general...granted.

'Do you have any vids for reference? Have you attended a throwdown and demonstrated any of these?'

video.....hahahaha...no.

throwdowns.....no...

'Ahh the dreaded "trained knife fighter"... is there alot of those guys running around where you're from?'


i am going to ignore your smartass remark and simply say that i have been doing a knife orientated art probably longer than you have been alive.

and to be fair, that stab routine is probably the best bet for the untrained.

put it will not work against anyone who knows what they are doing.

[caseyboy]

'I have no idea what your gung fu style uses for its knife defense, but I will go out on a limb right now and say if you do not use alive training it won't work.'

uhmmm....this isnt what i would call going out on a limb.

it's more like common sense.

dont you think?

So am I to assume that you use alive training? Its not something that kung fu is known for. Do you have any vids for reference? Have you attended a throwdown and demonstrated any of these?

Ahh the dreaded "trained knife fighter"... is there alot of those guys running around where you're from?

[caseyboy]

"I think you misunderstood me. I'm not referring to avoiding the fight altogether, I'm talking about tactical repositioning. Concepts such as 'sensitivity', 'zoning', and 'line familiarization' are also applicable. That way, you can actually get to a position where you can deploy your firearm, baton, taser, etc."

Okay, I think I understand tactical repositioning, but you lost me with sensitivity, zoning, etc.

"I can understand how something like that COULD be useful, especially if you've already been attacked. But my first line of defense is not going to be to get close to the suspect, because that's exactly where he wants me to be."

Right, my first line of defense is my sidearm, preferebly from 30 plus feet away.



"I know that alot of police departments are looking at that stuff. They're also looking at that Hans Marerro crap, or some of that other stuff out there too....because police administrators feel that the techniques taught by those systems are more media and public friendly. "

What I've seen of Hans Marerro's stuff is mostly just bjj. It has been my experience that the majority of officers do not train enough to be good in anything. When I endorse/teach something I keep in mind that it has to be reeeeeaaally simple because the fact is most cops will never practice the move again.

"They don't want to teach their officers systems like PFS or ISR Matrix because some of the techniques used actually involve killing your suspect with your bare hands, if necessary. The public would react very harshly in favour of the suspect if an officer had to resort to gouging the eyes out of some crackhead, even if he was trying to shove a knife between the officer's ribs. I don't think I need to even type here what the media would do with a scenario such as that."

You're losing me again. What is PFS or ISR Matrix and how do they teach to kill? Edit I just googled them up, give me some time to look at it.

Eye gouge vs a knife?

[IndoChinese]

'I have no idea what your gung fu style uses for its knife defense, but I will go out on a limb right now and say if you do not use alive training it won't work.'

uhmmm....this isnt what i would call going out on a limb.

it's more like common sense.

dont you think?

[IndoChinese]

'What, like "monkey steals the peach"? '

lolz...though i do know about four variations of that, and one i have in mind would do the trick.

'That is not a standing arm bar, its a two (hands) on one attempt to isolate the weapon hand.'

okay, let me be more precise. it's a shitty kinjit.

' And like I said, the reason I like STAB is because it DOESN'T HAVE "twelve" other things. It is kept very simple and trained alive. I have no idea what your gung fu style uses for its knife defense, but I will go out on a limb right now and say if you do not use alive training it won't work.'

feel free to limit yourself all you like.

stab might work against untrained knife attackers.

might.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, avoiding the fight altogether is always the first option. Both STAB and SSGT endorse that and operate under the assumption that you do not have that choice. STAB even goes so far to assume that the first time you actually realize there is a knife involved, it is being drawn back out of you.


I highly recommend looking into SSGT, it is quickly becoming the standard in police academies down this way. The techniques are simple and revolve around drawing your sidearm.
http://www.ssgt.us/

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not referring to avoiding the fight altogether, I'm talking about tactical repositioning. Concepts such as 'sensitivity', 'zoning', and 'line familiarization' are also applicable. That way, you can actually get to a position where you can deploy your firearm, baton, taser, etc.

I can understand how something like that COULD be useful, especially if you've already been attacked. But my first line of defense is not going to be to get close to the suspect, because that's exactly where he wants me to be.

I know that alot of police departments are looking at that stuff. They're also looking at that Hans Marerro crap, or some of that other stuff out there too....because police administrators feel that the techniques taught by those systems are more media and public friendly.

They don't want to teach their officers systems like PFS or ISR Matrix because some of the techniques used actually involve killing your suspect with your bare hands, if necessary. The public would react very harshly in favour of the suspect if an officer had to resort to gouging the eyes out of some crackhead, even if he was trying to shove a knife between the officer's ribs. I don't think I need to even type here what the media would do with a scenario such as that.

[caseyboy]

oh i agree, i think STAB sux.

there are like twelve other things i would do before that.

a standing armbar is not really that great a choice.

What, like "monkey steals the peach"?:sad5: That is not a standing arm bar, its a two (hands) on one attempt to isolate the weapon hand. And like I said, the reason I like STAB is because it DOESN'T HAVE "twelve" other things. It is kept very simple and trained alive. I have no idea what your gung fu style uses for its knife defense, but I will go out on a limb right now and say if you do not use alive training it won't work.



Phoenix, avoiding the fight altogether is always the first option. Both STAB and SSGT endorse that and operate under the assumption that you do not have that choice. STAB even goes so far to assume that the first time you actually realize there is a knife involved, it is being drawn back out of you.


I highly recommend looking into SSGT, it is quickly becoming the standard in police academies down this way. The techniques are simple and revolve around drawing your sidearm.
http://www.ssgt.us/

[IndoChinese]

oh i agree, i think STAB sux.

there are like twelve other things i would do before that.

a standing armbar is not really that great a choice.

[Phoenix]

STAB is the best unarmed vs. knife defense that I have tried. I contribute this to the simplicity of the techniques and the alive training.

SSGT is the best LEO vs knife defense that I have tried. The difference from the STAB program is that SSGT focuses on drawing your sidearm as soon as it is safely possible

Okay....my take on all that is simply this (and yes, I know I'm probably gonna catch a whole lot of hell for this, but I don't give a damn):

If you are facing an assailant with a knife, your immediate primary objective is to GET THE FUCK OUT OF HIS WAY. Distance is very much your friend in this type of scenario.

Above all else, you do NOT want to be grappling with a knife wielding maniac and trying to wrestle the knife out of his friggin hand - especially if it can be avoided. There is way too much risk of being stabbed or cut, and that's the biggest problem I have with taking on someone with a knife - all the blade has to do is touch you in order to do potentially serious damage.

Rather, you want to try to stay out of the path of the blade, get some distance and either deploy a weapon or get the fuck out of dodge.

The biggest problem I have with stuff like what is shown in the above video (and far too many police defensive tactics programs push this garbage) is that not one of those scenarios shown ever tested the premise that the defender was actually able to capture the assailant's knife hand to be able to apply the restraint/control tactics.

The reason for that is that it simply won't work - because if you're attacked by someone who is flailing a knife at you, and you're wasting your time trying to grab his hand, he's going to have a field day slicing your ass to ribbons.

Here's a good link that illustrates my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJGyxBgf0Is