"Jail Yard Rush" knife attack: defenses, anyone?

[Natural Fistic]

Sorry I missed you pussyholes. Been on a little business trip back to yard.

Anyway, all you so called martial artists or whatever be taking the piss when I mentioned a stab vest but you obvious ain't knowing basic prevention methods.

You'd all rather use lame fucking 'moves' and try to stop it. Well you cloths probably ain't never even faced a knife proper. I have. Stabbed 16 times.

A stab vest is essential for fighting with mans them tooled up with shivs.`

[Jim_Jude]

Sorry I missed you pussyholes. Been on a little business trip back to yard.

Anyway, all you so called martial artists or whatever be taking the piss when I mentioned a stab vest but you obvious ain't knowing basic prevention methods.

You'd all rather use lame fucking 'moves' and try to stop it. Well you cloths probably ain't never even faced a knife proper. I have. Stabbed 16 times.

A stab vest is essential for fighting with mans them tooled up with shivs.`

Fo' Shizzle?

Why don't you go :seppuku:

[Jim_Jude]

here a match up for you...

Piper v.s. Stab

i got a $G on Piper.

I don't know much about Piper but I've heard good things from some AMOK guys.

[selfcritical]

I don't know much about Piper but I've heard good things from some AMOK guys.

The purpose of the Piper is to flip out and kill people. It's the art of turbo-spazzing with a knife. Which it turns out is pretty hard to defend empty-handed.

[Jim_Jude]

The purpose of the Piper is to flip out and kill people. It's the art of turbo-spazzing with a knife. Which it turns out is pretty hard to defend empty-handed.

LOL Yeah, I can imagine...

[Jim_Jude]

Okay....my take on all that is simply this (and yes, I know I'm probably gonna catch a whole lot of hell for this, but I don't give a damn):

If you are facing an assailant with a knife, your immediate primary objective is to GET THE FUCK OUT OF HIS WAY. Distance is very much your friend in this type of scenario.

Above all else, you do NOT want to be grappling with a knife wielding maniac and trying to wrestle the knife out of his friggin hand - especially if it can be avoided. There is way too much risk of being stabbed or cut, and that's the biggest problem I have with taking on someone with a knife - all the blade has to do is touch you in order to do potentially serious damage...

[...]

...The reason for that is that it simply won't work - because if you're attacked by someone who is flailing a knife at you, and you're wasting your time trying to grab his hand, he's going to have a field day slicing your ass to ribbons.

Here's a good link that illustrates my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJGyxBgf0Is

That vid illustrated that point sparring against a knife is a waste of time.

I don't think that the STAB vid was too good, since I would be switching hands and then gutting the guy if it went on that long. Of course, the point to me would be to get to that optimum position that the STAB guys got to, really the only safe place in that situation (besides being at home in bed), and then an IMMEDIATE takedown, not standing there playing grab ass. I did like the knees to the thighs, that would effect a quick takedown. Move in to that optimum position, headbutting and kneeing, and then take down, all as quickly as possible.

If that is the goal of STAB, then definitely better than nothing, especially if you can't run for whatever reason. Just one option that should be drilled like crazy.

[Jim_Jude]

The public would react very harshly in favour of the suspect if an officer had to resort to gouging the eyes out of some crackhead, even if he was trying to shove a knife between the officer's ribs. I don't think I need to even type here what the media would do with a scenario such as that.

Hey, I'd eat that shit up. I'd love to see police eye gouging knife-wielding crackheads. Maybe then all the MMA folks would take such techniques seriously! :laughing6

[Jim_Jude]

stab might work against untrained knife attackers.

might.

How many certified knife fighters will cops be dealing with? I would train for what I'd be encountering (statistically) if I was an LEO, which is "untrained knife attackers". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jim_Jude]

Caseyboy, the idea of getting a two on one control of the knife hand seems like a good idea, but the video that you pointed out just isn't that great, particularly when you think about the jailyard rush tactics. I'd like to see more examples of the STAB system before making judgement, but the attackers in the video seem to be going very easy, and seem to be standing knifehand side forward, making it easy for the defender to turn the corner and get the Russian tie/two handed control.

A competent knife attacker will keep the knife in the rear hand, and will grab or check you off to open a line for a sewing machine style attack. They will constantly be squaring up to you to keep you from slipping to the outside.

I just can't see how they are handling this in the video. With the angles that the attacker is taking, it looks like he is just handing the defender that entry.

I recently read about an old FMA grandmaster that said that the majority of knife techniques that he teaches are drilling unarmed vs knifer, since statistically this is the situation that you must expect, someone to try and stab/cut you when you're unarmed. This really went against what one would expect if you believe the current trend of "knife sparring". Knife VS Knife is good to know, I suppose, but when it's a 1-in-10 situation while No Knife VS Knife is 9-in-10... well, it's just common sense to drill simply surviving against knife attacks. Once you can survive, then drill lots of disarms and such, if you like.

[Phoenix]

That vid illustrated that point sparring against a knife is a waste of time.

That wasn't the point at all.

The point of that video was to illustrate how easily a knife can do damage to someone in combat. Unlike any kind of blunt weapons, all a blade has to do is make contact to cause serious damage.

[Phoenix]

How many certified knife fighters will cops be dealing with? I would train for what I'd be encountering (statistically) if I was an LEO, which is "untrained knife attackers". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

ROTFLMAO


Trained knife fighters? Untrained knife fighters?

Who really gives a damn? The most basic thing that anyone with a knife needs to know, in order to be dangerous, is that the pointy end goes in the other guy.

When I'm dealing with a suspect armed with a blade, most of the time, I'm not going to know (or care) whether he's a a highly trained kali expert or just some scumbag with a shiv. I'm going to treat both the same - as a serious threat. That's how I, and I imagine many of the other LEO's here, have been trained, and that's how I train now.

IMO, it is a very bad thing to train in absolutes. If you believe that an assailant would never attack you in a particular manner, you won't train for the possibility that it could happen. It causes one to train in a limited way, and that is very dangerous.

[Hanniballistic]

We train to gouge eyes, bite, rip and tear when we cover UNARMED knife responses - if someone pulls a knife they area legitimate threat and ANY means necessary may be employed.

Personally prefer 180 grains of hot love (which is our preferred weapon of choice vs a knife) but we drill a lot of shock knife against unarmed oficers from distances raging from 3 - 20ft).

I have been involved in two knife on emty hands encounters - in both situations I blitz the asailant so fast he had a difficulttime reacting. That to me is the key in any defence...get it in first.

[Ryno]

I recently read about an old FMA grandmaster that said that the majority of knife techniques that he teaches are drilling unarmed vs knifer, since statistically this is the situation that you must expect, someone to try and stab/cut you when you're unarmed. This really went against what one would expect if you believe the current trend of "knife sparring".

That's a good point. Training for knife dueling is idiotic. It is not self defense, it is a duel. I will not get in a knife duel, ever. Empty hand vs. knife is a much more likely scenerio to have happen, and it is good to focus on that. I see knife vs. knife simply as a training tool to teach you to keep a tight defense, and to be decisive with counter attacks.

[Bolverk]

The attacker did exactly the right thing. Advanced quickly on his target without mercy or emotion.

The defender did exactly the wrong thing. Trying to move backwards away from an attack that was coming top speed. The defender was in a losing position from the first step.

This is a worst case scenario, and one many would succumb to. The only chance you have is to not move away from the attack. Use cross body taps and angle away from the inital charge. And, hope to God you have your own knife with you. Other then that, pray alot.

[selfcritical]

That's a good point. Training for knife dueling is idiotic. It is not self defense, it is a duel. I will not get in a knife duel, ever. Empty hand vs. knife is a much more likely scenerio to have happen, and it is good to focus on that. I see knife vs. knife simply as a training tool to teach you to keep a tight defense, and to be decisive with counter attacks.

Also, it builds coordination, footwork, and is REALLY fun. You wouldn't say that fencers are morons because they'll never be challenged to a swashbuckling duel.