"Jail Yard Rush" knife attack: defenses, anyone?

[Jim_Jude]

usually i would cross-hand check withmy forearm, corkscrewing the arm toward his hip, bump to make space and dash out of the window. If i didn't see an exit open up immediately, i would probably slide forearm contact to the elbow, go for the two on one tie, and slide my hands into wrist control or outside elbow control. If in wrist control, I would sink my weight down, move his arm as far away from the cross hand as possible while stretching the arm out, with my head placed in the crook of his neck to get a fulcrum. From there, headbutts and kneess, work the takedown to belly-down armbar if i can.

Huh. It's STAB :tongue3:

[selfcritical]

usually i would cross-hand check withmy forearm, corkscrewing the arm toward his hip, bump to make space and dash out of the window. If i didn't see an exit open up immediately, i would probably slide forearm contact to the elbow, go for the two on one tie, and slide my hands into wrist control or outside elbow control. If in wrist control, I would sink my weight down, move his arm as far away from the cross hand as possible while stretching the arm out, with my head placed in the crook of his neck to get a fulcrum. From there, headbutts and kneess, work the takedown to belly-down armbar if i can.

[Jim_Jude]

To be perfectly honest, folks, I didn't start this thread to get into some aimless debate about the multitude of knife issues, but simply to see how people train to deal with the Jail Yard Rush scenario. Nothing more.
That being said, I've enjoyed the conversation so far, lots of opinions, everyone's got one...

[caseyboy]

you an LEO?

regards,

kuntaokid

yes, for around 12 years now.

[IndoChinese]

[IndoChinese]

The purpose of the Piper is to flip out and kill people. It's the art of turbo-spazzing with a knife. Which it turns out is pretty hard to defend empty-handed.

piper uses a shitload of disengagements and reverses.

[IndoChinese]

How many certified knife fighters will cops be dealing with? I would train for what I'd be encountering (statistically) if I was an LEO, which is "untrained knife attackers". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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mostly loons with butcher knives, or con or two with a sticker, i imagine.

and of course, every so often there is the occasional 'samurai', who usually ends up commiting suicide by cop.

[IndoChinese]

I think trying to chase the wrist AT ALL is the mark of a bad knife defense.

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absolutely, it is not the main thing to control.

[IndoChinese]

This is one of the reasons that I think it's sometimes prudent to enter very deeply when dealing with a knife attack, esp a particularly unskilled knifer. Being inside and behind the knife hand while dealing damage prevents many of the hand changes, stripping, and counter-disarm tactics.

Once upon a time, I thought that outside was the best place to be. Now, I most certainly don't. Get in & maim and cripple...

oh, i agree 110%, being a kuntaoer. either close enough to kiss or he sees ass and elbows. no inbetween. some guys train largo, for 'safety'. doesnt make me feel safe.

[Bladesinger]

Okay, this thread just got fucking stupid really fast.

If we're all being honest, this thread got pretty stupid quite a few pages ago.

[Jim_Jude]

That depends. If your point was that anyone with a knife is dangerous and should be treated as such, then we share the same viewpoint.

Yes, I agree. However, I don't think that that is the extent of things. Do you?

Where did I say anything about dealing with complexity of Filipino MA or any other kind of MA?

TRAINING with those concepts in mind is a good idea, but I'm not going to worry about dealing with such a person. If anything, I'm gonna treat every knife wielding nutcase equally - equally dangerous.

Yes, but you said above that "IMO, it is a very bad thing to train in absolutes. If you believe that an assailant would never attack you in a particular manner, you won't train for the possibility that it could happen. It causes one to train in a limited way, and that is very dangerous."

You don't see the conflict? You "aren't going to worry about dealing with such a person" but you don't want "to train in a limited way"?

What is the universal knife defense that allows you to treat all knife attackers equal?
Two to the chest & one to the head?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impresson that when you talk about basing your training on statistics, you're concerning yourself with specific drills. If this is the case, then how do you apply these drills in scenarios where anything can happen? Or do you do that?

This has nothing to do with 'exotic stuff'. It has to do with preparing yourself for the eventuality that the fight is not going to go your way. In fact, it's been my experience that it rarely does.

It is ridiculous to train with statistics in mind because every person and every fight is different.

Huh. Okay. So... :XXonlyamo

[Ryno]

I don't know about Natural Fistic, but Stab Vests seem to be very expensive. Not only that, they are usually part of a ballistic vest, which may be illegal for private citizens in the states, provided they have not been convicted of a violent felony.

I think he's talking about the homemade versions, with phonebooks and duct tape.

[Phoenix]

I think you missed my point.
Try this: go really piss off your wife/girlfriend/significant other, I mean really make them see red. Hand them a knife and have them attack you. Compare that to the attack of a pissed off ex-con, or a pissed off FMA master, or a pissed off Silat master.

That depends. If your point was that anyone with a knife is dangerous and should be treated as such, then we share the same viewpoint.

How often are you going to deal with the complexity of FMAs or SE Asian MA tactics? Prison & Jail attack videos show a small arsenal of knife attacks that can be drilled. Anyone that works in LE can see what the most common knife attacks are during crimes of passion committed by the "untrained".
I say, drill for these, and then worry about the occasional drugged-up Sayoc knifer jumping you in a dark alley.

Where did I say anything about dealing with complexity of Filipino MA or any other kind of MA?

TRAINING with those concepts in mind is a good idea, but I'm not going to worry about dealing with such a person. If anything, I'm gonna treat every knife wielding nutcase equally - equally dangerous.

You say training in a limited way is dangerous. I say, train for the statistically probable attack varieties, and then work with the exotic stuff.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impresson that when you talk about basing your training on statistics, you're concerning yourself with specific drills. If this is the case, then how do you apply these drills in scenarios where anything can happen? Or do you do that?

This has nothing to do with 'exotic stuff'. It has to do with preparing yourself for the eventuality that the fight is not going to go your way. In fact, it's been my experience that it rarely does.

It is ridiculous to train with statistics in mind because every person and every fight is different.

[Bolverk]

I don't know about Natural Fistic, but Stab Vests seem to be very expensive. Not only that, they are usually part of a ballistic vest, which may be illegal for private citizens in the states, provided they have not been convicted of a violent felony.

[Phoenix]

Okay, this thread just got fucking stupid really fast.