"Jail Yard Rush" knife attack: defenses, anyone?

[Jim_Jude]

Notes after the knife defense challenges at the Texas Kali Association camp.

-Against someone who commits deep with rapid stab movements, i'm getting better and better at just working completely behind the knife holding shoulder after the first 1-3 movements. Escaping seems to be getting easier
- Once i got behind the shoulder early, and the time for me to stay in wasn't up yet, i had a MUCH harder time once the knifer turned and engaged. If the escape path behind an assailant isn't clear, i might have some problems.
-Troy dudley is death on two legs with a knife. I went through 4 people before him without suffering any fatal wounds, and he inflicted 9 fatal shots on me in 20 seconds.
-It's incredibly hard to defend the low line center to upward thrust immediately after someone shifts your weight backward with a forearm hack. Troy landed it 5 times in a row.
- I need to work more against the high line downward thrust as well, as it was giving me problems.

I'm lovin' it. Thank you.

Your first two points would seem to mirror STAB, at least in the initial movements. I would say that being behind that knife-side upper arm/shoulder is the safest place, until he switches hands, of course... That's why I'd try to effect the takedown immediately, do quick damage, & runrunrun.

[selfcritical]

Notes after the knife defense challenges at the Texas Kali Association camp.

-Against someone who commits deep with rapid stab movements, i'm getting better and better at just working completely behind the knife holding shoulder after the first 1-3 movements. Escaping seems to be getting easier
- Once i got behind the shoulder early, and the time for me to stay in wasn't up yet, i had a MUCH harder time once the knifer turned and engaged. If the escape path behind an assailant isn't clear, i might have some problems.
-Troy dudley is death on two legs with a knife. I went through 4 people before him without suffering any fatal wounds, and he inflicted 9 fatal shots on me in 20 seconds.
-It's incredibly hard to defend the low line center to upward thrust immediately after someone shifts your weight backward with a forearm hack. Troy landed it 5 times in a row.
- I need to work more against the high line downward thrust as well, as it was giving me problems.

[Jim_Jude]

Ah, ok, I understand. I've actually been looking into some martial arts that use weapons. My interest is mostly just for fun. I looked at some dog brothers videos and I thought they were totally out of their mind, but it sure looked fun. I'd want some thing that is "realistic" however unlikely or umcommon it was that it got used "on teh streets". I know pretty much nothing about this. And I should really just focus on my current training at the moment. But it might be something to look into in the future.

Hey, you train Dog Bros, you'll have the realistic, the unlikely, and the uncommon all covered.

[Worldchampion!]

Ah, ok, I understand. I've actually been looking into some martial arts that use weapons. My interest is mostly just for fun. I looked at some dog brothers videos and I thought they were totally out of their mind, but it sure looked fun. I'd want some thing that is "realistic" however unlikely or umcommon it was that it got used "on teh streets". I know pretty much nothing about this. And I should really just focus on my current training at the moment. But it might be something to look into in the future.

[Jim_Jude]

Just seems like an psycho thing to do.

YES.

However, this doesn't stop criminals from occasionally attempting to repeatedly pump sharp objects into your guts, for whatever reason. That's pretty much why we train to try and deal with it. Awareness is the first step, then footwork, & then defensive methods & counter-attacks. & Running. Lots of Running.

[Jim_Jude]

Define trained plz. I would Guess they have about a 5% chance of running into a paroled fellon who has used things like the jailhouse rush while in prision. so real threat you tell me. and even if it was 1% i think it's still a viable chance of happening.

Knowing one or two ways of stabbing someone that have worked well in the past is not someone that trains in FMAs for years or decades. That is how we are using "trained", for the most part. Training is formal. Someone in prison spending a minute or two in a dark corner of the kitchen or laundry showing you how to stab another prisoner is different.

Can everyone agree on that? Because that's how I've been using the word over the course of my time here. Training is Formal.

[Worldchampion!]

This has got to do with the original video. Maybe I didn't read the comments well enough. But why would I want to attack an unarmed man and stab him multiple times with the end aim of killing him?

I can see it being some sort of practice, as an art, or to be a better training partner for someone who is training to defend something like that. I just got the impression that it was for some sort of "street fight".

Just seems like an psycho thing to do.

Maybe I'm wrong, and this is an stupid question.

[mad_malk]

How many certified knife fighters will cops be dealing with? I would train for what I'd be encountering (statistically) if I was an LEO, which is "untrained knife attackers". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Define trained plz. I would Guess they have about a 5% chance of running into a paroled fellon who has used things like the jailhouse rush while in prision. so real threat you tell me. and even if it was 1% i think it's still a viable chance of happening.

[Jim_Jude]

Sorry for the late reply, Jim.

I'll give you an example of what I mean when I say 'training in absolutes'. I was at a kali seminar a year or so back. I was paired up with some other guy and we were doing a type of defang drill. Basically, in the drill, the feeder comes in with a downward angle slash and as he does, the defender moves out of the way and slashes the outside of the feeder's arm. Anyway, as the instructor was going around to each group to see how everyone was catching on, he came up to my group. The guy who was feeding me was using an overhand grip on his knife (think Anthony Perkin's 'Psycho') and coming down at the angle I described. The instructor stopped us immediately and said that what we were doing was wrong because 'a trained knife fighter would never attack like that'. I politely said to him 'perhaps you're right, but I'd like to try it this way anyway'.

Where a knife is concerned, my view is simply this: It's not rocket science.

You asked me before 'What is the universal knife defense that allows you to treat all knife attackers equal?' There is no universal knife defense that does this. That's why I feel it's more important to train with concepts and principles in mind, rather than solely technique.

That aside, though....it's probably more fair to say that it's really dependent on the person, in terms of how to deal with a knife. Some people, especially those who have a strong background in grappling, would feel very comfortable going in close to a person with a knife and doing what was shown in the video. I mean...if they can pull the technique off and it works, then why the hell not?

I, personally, would not be comfortable with that, but that's just me. My training, mindset, and attitude may differ slightly or drastically from yours or anyone else's.

I dunno. I guess I'll just chalk it up to Murhpy's Law: If it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid.

But yeah....two to the chest and one to the head? That's always a good plan.

Okay, that's cool.

What method do you use to convey the principles of knife defense?

[Jim_Jude]

Most of the silat in pekiti-Tirsia is in the unarmed grappling curriculum, is very, very stripped down in how it's trained and presented. I do Mande Muda with Jagabaya Leslie buck, who was trained by Herman Suwanda(Pak Herman's family calls him "little herman"). He is also my Pekiti Tirsia instructor(His instructors, in order, are Erwin Ballarta, Leo Gaje, and Rommel Tortal).

I take Filipino boxing with larry st. clair as well(one of Ron balicki's students), and my understanding is that a lot of the clinch and groundwork therin is from the insosanto blend of maphilindo silat.

Cool. Thank you for the candid reply. (I was only curious, btw :icon_salu )

[selfcritical]

What style of Silat do you practice? or are you counting the Silat that contributed to Pekiti Tersia? (no disrespect, it's there & it's valid)

Most of the silat in pekiti-Tirsia is in the unarmed grappling curriculum, is very, very stripped down in how it's trained and presented. I do Mande Muda with Jagabaya Leslie buck, who was trained by Herman Suwanda(Pak Herman's family calls him "little herman"). He is also my Pekiti Tirsia instructor(His instructors, in order, are Erwin Ballarta, Leo Gaje, and Rommel Tortal).

I take Filipino boxing with larry st. clair as well(one of Ron balicki's students), and my understanding is that a lot of the clinch and groundwork therin is from the insosanto blend of maphilindo silat.

[Jim_Jude]

Note; all of this is assuming I DON"T have a weapon of my own.

What style of Silat do you practice? or are you counting the Silat that contributed to Pekiti Tersia? (no disrespect, it's there & it's valid)

[selfcritical]

Note; all of this is assuming I DON"T have a weapon of my own.

[selfcritical]

Huh. It's STAB :tongue3:

At that range yes. I prefer to make my escape at the range where knife-tapping is applicable. In application i can usually make space to take-off through the backhand window, and I do this FAR more often than going for the clinch. Particularly if I can stun after the first 1-2 guides. I think at hyper-close range there really isn't anything functional(and by hyper-close i mean shoulder to shoulder, guy is grabbing you and stabbing upward) that doesn't end up looking like greco-roman wrestling. If the prison yard rush starts at interview distance, I would generally prefer to tap and guide the weapon arm before corkscrewing it down, and stepping behind the lead leg, or pushing at the shoulder and running through the window(I always try to run PAST the knifer instead of away if I can help it.)

[Phoenix]

Yes, but you said above that [B]"IMO, it is a very bad thing to train in absolutes. If you believe that an assailant would never attack you in a particular manner, you won't train for the possibility that it could happen. It causes one to train in a limited way, and that is very dangerous."

Sorry for the late reply, Jim.

I'll give you an example of what I mean when I say 'training in absolutes'. I was at a kali seminar a year or so back. I was paired up with some other guy and we were doing a type of defang drill. Basically, in the drill, the feeder comes in with a downward angle slash and as he does, the defender moves out of the way and slashes the outside of the feeder's arm. Anyway, as the instructor was going around to each group to see how everyone was catching on, he came up to my group. The guy who was feeding me was using an overhand grip on his knife (think Anthony Perkin's 'Psycho') and coming down at the angle I described. The instructor stopped us immediately and said that what we were doing was wrong because 'a trained knife fighter would never attack like that'. I politely said to him 'perhaps you're right, but I'd like to try it this way anyway'.

Where a knife is concerned, my view is simply this: It's not rocket science.

You asked me before 'What is the universal knife defense that allows you to treat all knife attackers equal?' There is no universal knife defense that does this. That's why I feel it's more important to train with concepts and principles in mind, rather than solely technique.

That aside, though....it's probably more fair to say that it's really dependent on the person, in terms of how to deal with a knife. Some people, especially those who have a strong background in grappling, would feel very comfortable going in close to a person with a knife and doing what was shown in the video. I mean...if they can pull the technique off and it works, then why the hell not?

I, personally, would not be comfortable with that, but that's just me. My training, mindset, and attitude may differ slightly or drastically from yours or anyone else's.

I dunno. I guess I'll just chalk it up to Murhpy's Law: If it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid.

But yeah....two to the chest and one to the head? That's always a good plan.