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"House Gun": The ultimate home defense weapon, or the ultimate Elmore-esque gimmick?

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    #46
    Originally posted by RunningDog
    I stand corrected, didn't know what a side saddle was and will now STFU until I join a shooting club.

    Sorry... Didnt realize you were English. Educationally challenged on this stuff. Didnt mean to treat you like an American Hippy

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      #47
      I'm pretty happy with my remmington 870 police magnium with folding stock (posted in the guns and porn thread on here). Found it pretty accurate with slugs and buch shot when shooting from the shoulder, hip and even one handed.

      Still looking at picking up a glock17 or colt 1911 variant for under the pillow.

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        #48

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          #49


          Wrong! dead wrong. Indoors a shotguns spread is just big enough to cause problems. It's not big enough to make up for a marksmanship problem. People think that the spread on a shotgun will compensate for a lack of training or raw ability. WRONG! It will not.

          Treat your guns the way you treat all other martial arts. Train. Drill. Learn. If you do not practice your fundementals you will be just as fucked on "game day" as you would in the ring or on the street in a HTH situation if you do not practice.

          Most people.... most people dont train. But we are not most people.

          And IMO... if you own only 1 gun, and if it's only for home defense, and if you want the gun to be legal everywhere in the states, get a shotgun and learn to use it tactically.

          keep in mind that as for me I (1) own more than 1 gun. (2) dont own a shotgun at the present time (3) have a different threat envelope than most people.

          But generally... if nothing else.... spend the $300 on a good shotgun and good accessories. and spend another $300 on training and ammo yearly.

          And please for the love of the goddess DO NOT SUBSTITUTE A SHOT PATTERN FOR TRAINING OR MARKSMANSHIP

          2 cents for free over the interweb,
          -Antifa

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            #50
            I'm with Antifa on this one. Indoors relying on a shotguns spread instead of marksmanship is bad news. Even with a 1300 winchester defender using no.9 birdshot, upclose the pattern was still pretty small. I think people hear talk about shotguns spreading and like 3 day self defense classes it lures them into a false sense of security.

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              #51
              Originally posted by GuiltySpark
              I'm with Antifa on this one. Indoors relying on a shotguns spread instead of marksmanship is bad news. Even with a 1300 winchester defender using no.9 birdshot, upclose the pattern was still pretty small. I think people hear talk about shotguns spreading and like 3 day self defense classes it lures them into a false sense of security.
              I agree 100%, The reason you have multiple pellets in buck shot is to hit multiple vital organs and cut multiple holes into arteries or to increase youre odds of just hitting one major blood vessal to bleed them out. When it comes to waterfowl or birds you increase the numbers of pellets and shoot at distence to get some spread to hit the small bones in wings and to hit very small targets like the heads and necks on fowl. You are also looking for multiple organ hits.


              One thing to keep in mind is with fowl youre closest average shot is going to be 30 feet and max out to about 60 to a 100 compared to say 5 to 15 feet in a house. Having a large pattern to get on target in close qaurters is bad science, having a large pattern to cause the most damage from a single weapons discharge that is on target is the objective.

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                #52
                Uh, yeah. If you wouldn't spray 9mm bullets out in a wide pattern in hopes that some of them will hit the bad guy, there's no reason to do it with buckshot. My house gun is loaded with slugs simply because that's what I practice with and what I'm comfortable with. I've never fired a round of buck in my life. I suppose I probably ought to give it a try and see what happens.

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by ar549
                  I agree 100%, The reason you have multiple pellets in buck shot is to hit multiple vital organs and cut multiple holes into arteries or to increase youre odds of just hitting one major blood vessal to bleed them out. When it comes to waterfowl or birds you increase the numbers of pellets and shoot at distence to get some spread to hit the small bones in wings and to hit very small targets like the heads and necks on fowl. You are also looking for multiple organ hits.


                  One thing to keep in mind is with fowl youre closest average shot is going to be 30 feet and max out to about 60 to a 100 compared to say 5 to 15 feet in a house. Having a large pattern to get on target in close qaurters is bad science, having a large pattern to cause the most damage from a single weapons discharge that is on target is the objective.
                  Indoors the trend is towards larger homes and more open spaces in them with more walls being knocked out and "breakfast" bars being added. So it might be a good idea to think 5 to 40 feet for indoors.

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                    #54
                    Originally posted by Antifa
                    Wrong! dead wrong. Indoors a shotguns spread is just big enough to cause problems. It's not big enough to make up for a marksmanship problem. People think that the spread on a shotgun will compensate for a lack of training or raw ability. WRONG! It will not.
                    Treat your guns the way you treat all other martial arts. Train. Drill. Learn. If you do not practice your fundementals you will be just as fucked on "game day" as you would in the ring or on the street in a HTH situation if you do not practice.
                    Most people.... most people dont train. But we are not most people.
                    And IMO... if you own only 1 gun, and if it's only for home defense, and if you want the gun to be legal everywhere in the states, get a shotgun and learn to use it tactically.
                    keep in mind that as for me I (1) own more than 1 gun. (2) dont own a shotgun at the present time (3) have a different threat envelope than most people.
                    But generally... if nothing else.... spend the $300 on a good shotgun and good accessories. and spend another $300 on training and ammo yearly.
                    And please for the love of the goddess DO NOT SUBSTITUTE A SHOT PATTERN FOR TRAINING OR MARKSMANSHIP
                    2 cents for free over the interweb,
                    -Antifa
                    I have to agree with you here, however in referance to the eariler comments about the tactical re-load/switch load, I still cannot recomend for most people. Familiarity with the weapon? absolutly. Proper training in its use and practice of basic techniques? of course. However you have to realize that for people who are not like us, people who shot at the minimum weekly, you cannot expect them to be able to use advance techniques since they do not have the time/willingness to train them.

                    This is the reasons I recomend a shot gun; 1st Threat, people will think you can miss with a hand gun (and they maybe right) People can even think you will miss with a non-assult type rifle. However because our friends in holywood have made it look impossible to miss with a shotgun......

                    2nd Shotguns are cheap, and effective. We can argue about shooting different ranges with bird shot versus buck shot versus slugs. Fact is you can kill with any of these.

                    3rd Shotguns are great for people who do not have time to train monthly with a weapon. You can train quarterly with a shotgun and be reasonably effective as long as you arn't doing entry team work. The most likely situation is; you hear something, you call 911, the police show up, the police clear your house, no one is there. Or the first few of these occur you hide out where you are safe, bad guy comes into where you are...Bang..."hello crime scene cleaners, yeah I need you to come out I made a big mess"

                    4th Safety, I will check statistics on this but I would geuss that if you compair accidental shootings between long guns and hand guns. Hand guns are more likely to be involved.

                    Statistically speaking you are more likely to be robbed on the street then to have a home invasion situation. Therefore homedefense tactics, like training for spear defense, is somthing good to know but not something you are likely to use.
                    Last edited by Planktime; 12/05/2006 12:48pm, .

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by Antifa
                      Indoors the trend is towards larger homes and more open spaces in them with more walls being knocked out and "breakfast" bars being added. So it might be a good idea to think 5 to 40 feet for indoors.
                      Thats the problem with me, Im always in CQTPB mode:XXjester:





                      CQTPB = Close Qaurters Trailer Park Battle

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by Planktime
                        I have to agree with you here, however in referance to the eariler comments about the tactical re-load/switch load, I still cannot recomend for most people. Familiarity with the weapon? absolutly. Proper training in its use and practice of basic techniques? of course. However you have to realize that for people who are not like us, people who shot at the minimum weekly, you cannot expect them to be able to use advance techniques since they do not have the time/willingness to train them.

                        I'm not sure I'd call the technique advanced. I'd call it intermediate. I'm not sure its beyond the basic training abilities of the average jane or joe.

                        But... I tend ot have alot of faith in humanity generally. So we are into opinions here really

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by Antifa
                          wow.... your pathological hatred of all things me has actually managed to fuck with your reading comprehesion.

                          There is no shell juggling. The shells are on a sidesaddle... its 2 inches from the loading port. you can tell the difference because they are reversed by type.

                          you also drill this excercise like you would any other tactcial action.

                          It's not that hard. I bet you could even learn to do it.
                          I don't hate you, Dude. I do think you have a tendency to be a preachy asshole under pressure, and you are ridiculously easy to troll into a tizzy. But "Hate"? Nah.

                          I read your post several times to make sure I was truly understanding what you were trying to say. And I'm still convinced its a retarded idea.

                          I'm not saying its impossible. I've owned pump action shotguns and I know what the fuck a side saddle is.

                          I'm saying that it is so impractical as to be either suicide for you or death for your beloved hostage-in-danger, and highly susceptible to mistakes in a dark house and a headfull of adrenaline.

                          Bad Tactics that would likely make a bad (although unlikely) situation worse.

                          ****

                          on the other issue, I agree that shot spread inside will be minimal. At close ranges Buckshot punches a fist-sized hole thru soft targets. Still a good likelihood that a random pellet or two will escape that pattern, though, making it a bad tool for hostage-rescue sniper headshots.

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                            #58
                            But... I tend ot have alot of faith in humanity generally. So we are into opinions here really
                            Yea I'd say too much faith man. For someone to pull off your trick I'd think they'd have to have considerable time practicing it, and then more. I've seen a lot of soldiers, say with 10 years xp. who are given a pump action shotgun and the minute they fire once they look down at it and wonder why it can't fire. Even after they've practiced a little while on it, same goes with bolt action rifles. It's all about the stress and people dropping back to what their trained to do. Even if someone "got good" and reloading like you suggested I could easily see them panicing and screwing up when trying to do it in a real situation.
                            Someone should grab a shotgun with some various loads and take a picture of a pattern at 6 feet then 15 with a defender type shotgun then again with a long barreled shotgun and post them.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by GuiltySpark
                              . It's all about the stress and people dropping back to what their trained to do. Even if someone "got good" and reloading like you suggested I could easily see them panicing and screwing up when trying to do it in a real situation.
                              'Xactly.

                              Antifa, if you can't hear it from a Gentle Hippy like me, maybe you'll listen to the Cops and Soldiers.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by Zendetta
                                'Xactly.

                                Antifa, if you can't hear it from a Gentle Hippy like me, maybe you'll listen to the Cops and Soldiers.

                                Again with the selective senses (hearing? reading?.... o wait... thinking) .

                                Guilty Spark is talking about guys with no training of pump shottys falling back on their training with M-4/16s etc. I'm talking about training specific drills on one of your primary weapons.

                                does not apply.

                                I got a novel idea. Humor me. Get (buy, borrow, steal) a fuxing mosberg and try it. I bet you get it right pretty quick.

                                shit... I'll go one better. send me a mailing address and I'll send you the DVD. Tell me how hard it was to learn all the fundmentals

                                And bring a non-shooting novice along as a control.

                                Write it up when your done post it here.

                                The test is not weather you like the vid...

                                its weather the material is easy to learn

                                you down?

                                any other takers?

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