Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Modern Scout Rifle

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    The Modern Scout Rifle

    About 40 years ago, Jeff Cooper created a concept called the "Scout Rifle." It was a light weight (6-7.7 lbs max) setup that included a bolt action chambered in .308 and had a long eye relief scope mounted forward of the action. The idea was to have a general purpose rifle that was pretty good for just about anything. You could fight with it or hunt anything up to 1000lbs with it.

    I think that concept has merit, but his design is outdated due to advances in firearms and optics design. His cartridge of choice may be a bit long in the tooth as well. Additionally I think the scout rifle concept needs to have a suppressor attached.

    Here are a few options I think would be good alternatives

    1.) A low power variable optic. 1-8 or 1-10. Solves the problem of good peripheral vision and provides a lot more capability. Alternatively one could substitute a light weight magnified scope, something like the SWFA 2-10. Alternatively a light weight but durable small red dot with a micro 3x magnifier might be acceptable.

    2.) Lever action, bolt action, or semi auto. I think we are spoiled for choice here. A Henry long ranger, light weight bolt gun like a Tikka, or a modified frame AR that can accept .308 family cartridges would be acceptable. One could even argue that the 6.5 Grendel could fill this role. Plenty of options to keep weight around 8 lbs.

    3.) A QD style Suppressor that doesn't add much weight. Energetic Vox K, Rugged Radiant, and many others don't add a ton of weight or length, but would go a long way toward protecting hearing, damping recoil, and improving flash signature.

    4.) Modularity. The scout rifle must be flexible by its definition, so some kind of ability to quickly change accessories and optics should be mandatory. I think MLOK wins handily, but other options do exist.

    One caveat: night and thermal optics would be amazing. One could make a strong argument for their inclusion given the huge increase in capabilities they provide. I doubt Cooper imagined how far we would progress in that regard. But they create a severe weight penalty.

    ​​​​​​What's your ideal scout style rifle? Something around 8lbs that you could hump with all day, shoot accurately, and be effective with in most environments?
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

    #2
    I think fighting was the least important thing on Coopers mind. Scouts are not really supposed to engage. Or if it was, he did not live in the modern environment. So, an mag fed semiauto would be best.
    If those get made illegal for civvy use, then mag fed bolt, or lever.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by BKR View Post
      I think fighting was the least important thing on Coopers mind. Scouts are not really supposed to engage. Or if it was, he did not live in the modern environment. So, an mag fed semiauto would be best.
      If those get made illegal for civvy use, then mag fed bolt, or lever.
      I was gonna say semiauto is the least noisy option compared to manual actions. Levers, bolts create unnecessary noise. Hunting not a big deal, but millitary recon, an unnecessary risk?

      Comment


        #4
        I don't think semiautos are all that much quieter. If anything, they require special provisions not to cycle upon firing. See also the Hush-Puppy attachment to the S&W semiauto pistol.

        Comment


          #5
          I like the .308 in a bolt action, short magazine fed. We're talking a scout rifle with good function-ability at various ranges and not holding a horde at bay.

          Optics are a matter of choice. I like the 1-8 variable. Even more so the concept of night optics. This is an area wherein advances in technology, drop in weight and price are still ongoing. Modularity, yeah.

          Suppressor of choice I can't admit to having any expertise. I do have some background in 3D printing some design concepts not easily manufactured from the subtractive method to be made in one piece.

          A good trigger no doubt.

          Composite stock and heavy barrelled. Keep it within a reasonable weight but stiff in regard to muzzle whip. Fluted barrel would be my choice.

          must stop

          Getting a stiffy.

          Last edited by hungryjoe; 2/29/2020 9:04pm, .
          Carter Hargrave's Jeet Can't Do

          http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31636

          Comment


            #6
            ‘Scouting’ is quite a broad term. Militarily it could be conducting a recce/recon task for a bigger group or in a civilian context it could mean patrolling an area you know or exploring a new one in a SHTF event. Either way it means crossing possibly hostile areas undetected so going off of that I’d choose a battle rifle that’s useful from medium to long ranges.

            I have experience with the british sharpshooter rifle:


            https://www.eliteukforces.info/weapo...-sharpshooter/

            https://images.app.goo.gl/UFLem1nnxd8y9xCH7


            In brief it’s chambered to 7.62 with a 6x Acog and a CQB sight fixed above that with a 20 round box magazine. It has Picatinny so can be fitted with bipods, lasers etc if need be. It’s quite heavy but that’s it’s only real downside, it’s versatile, robust and if you know your way around an AR it’s a home away from home. As mentioned earlier a suppressor would be ideal as well.

            I think the majority of battle rifles would fit this role except for the hunting element, I don’t know much about that so would wait out for advice from BK or guys who are more knowledgeable on wether something like a battle rifle would be suitable for game.
            Ne Obliviscaris

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Kovacs
              ‘Scouting’ is quite a broad term. Militarily it could be conducting a recce/recon task for a bigger group or in a civilian context it could mean patrolling an area you know or exploring a new one in a SHTF event. Either way it means crossing possibly hostile areas undetected so going off of that I’d choose a battle rifle that’s useful from medium to long ranges.

              I have experience with the british sharpshooter rifle:


              https://www.eliteukforces.info/weapo...-sharpshooter/

              https://images.app.goo.gl/UFLem1nnxd8y9xCH7


              In brief it’s chambered to 7.62 with a 6x Acog and a CQB sight fixed above that with a 20 round box magazine. It has Picatinny so can be fitted with bipods, lasers etc if need be. It’s quite heavy but that’s it’s only real downside, it’s versatile, robust and if you know your way around an AR it’s a home away from home. As mentioned earlier a suppressor would be ideal as well.

              I think the majority of battle rifles would fit this role except for the hunting element, I don’t know much about that so would wait out for advice from BK or guys who are more knowledgeable on wether something like a battle rifle would be suitable for game.
              Weight is a big deal to me. An 8 lb plus battle rifle is a load to lug around. Certsinly 7.62 is good enough to kill large game.

              I never liked the scout scope thing.

              I kind of get a chuckle out of Cooper in a way I mean I read most if not all of his original articles back when he was publishing in guns and ammo in the 70s Etc.

              Nowadays thinking the combination military and civilian type rifle like the Scout rifle just seems a bit silly.

              I'm not putting down to this conversation it's an interesting and good one for sure.

              Cooper just seem to have kind of a romantic view about some things.

              They're making bolt action rifles these days with the capability of taking larger-capacity box magazines pretty sure Ruger and Savage both have those going on. So I think probably a bolt-action is what I'm leaning towards now with the option for different size magazines depending on if you actually think you're going to have to shoot a lot.

              Optics an ACOG would be nice very expensive though I think I was Joe on a variable Power Scope no more than 8x.

              Picatinny rail on top would be good for switching stuff like that out depending on the mission.
              Falling for Judo since 1980

              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

              Comment


                #8
                I think the Scout Rifle concept is kind of silly, but I figured it would draw more interest than "which lightweight hunting rifle do you like?"
                "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'm going to key off the utility portion of the idea rather than the scout portion. Reason being, I have a close friend who is a Marine Force Recon. He told me that his mission was to get in and get out without anyone ever knowing he was there. Not that he didn't want to be detected. He didn't even want to leave a trace that he was there to begin with. And he had a bunch of classified awards to show that he was good at what he did. He didn't take a lot of equipment with him and the stuff he did take was a shit hit the fan type of stuff.

                  I have another friend who is a sniper. His gear was totally different.

                  So, if I were picking a rifle that is going to be able to shoot really well at a distance and then also put down a high volume when I need it, I'm taking a semi or full auto capable AR platform rifle rather than a bolt action. I have a super accurate bolt action .308 but I eventually started using an AR10 to hunt with just because it is lighter, way lighter than my .308. But that is also my fault because I changed the stock and barrel out on the bolt action. Still, super light weight and able to use a long range 30 caliber round for distance would be my choice. Then the ability to pick up mags of 7.62 from pretty much anywhere in the world would also play into that.
                  Combatives training log.

                  Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

                  Drum thread

                  Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

                  "Disliking someone is not evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance or even bias." --Dung Beatles

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thread is done.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Cassius View Post
                      I think the Scout Rifle concept is kind of silly, but I figured it would draw more interest than "which lightweight hunting rifle do you like?"
                      Right, but it's an interesting conversation to have, in any case.

                      I can't remember why Cooper liked the long eye-relief scope.

                      Falling for Judo since 1980

                      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Cassius View Post
                        About 40 years ago, Jeff Cooper created a concept called the "Scout Rifle." It was a light weight (6-7.7 lbs max) setup that included a bolt action chambered in .308 and had a long eye relief scope mounted forward of the action. The idea was to have a general purpose rifle that was pretty good for just about anything. You could fight with it or hunt anything up to 1000lbs with it.

                        I think that concept has merit, but his design is outdated due to advances in firearms and optics design. His cartridge of choice may be a bit long in the tooth as well. Additionally I think the scout rifle concept needs to have a suppressor attached.

                        Here are a few options I think would be good alternatives

                        1.) A low power variable optic. 1-8 or 1-10. Solves the problem of good peripheral vision and provides a lot more capability. Alternatively one could substitute a light weight magnified scope, something like the SWFA 2-10. Alternatively a light weight but durable small red dot with a micro 3x magnifier might be acceptable.

                        2.) Lever action, bolt action, or semi auto. I think we are spoiled for choice here. A Henry long ranger, light weight bolt gun like a Tikka, or a modified frame AR that can accept .308 family cartridges would be acceptable. One could even argue that the 6.5 Grendel could fill this role. Plenty of options to keep weight around 8 lbs.

                        3.) A QD style Suppressor that doesn't add much weight. Energetic Vox K, Rugged Radiant, and many others don't add a ton of weight or length, but would go a long way toward protecting hearing, damping recoil, and improving flash signature.

                        4.) Modularity. The scout rifle must be flexible by its definition, so some kind of ability to quickly change accessories and optics should be mandatory. I think MLOK wins handily, but other options do exist.

                        One caveat: night and thermal optics would be amazing. One could make a strong argument for their inclusion given the huge increase in capabilities they provide. I doubt Cooper imagined how far we would progress in that regard. But they create a severe weight penalty.

                        ​​​​​​What's your ideal scout style rifle? Something around 8lbs that you could hump with all day, shoot accurately, and be effective with in most environments?
                        I think bolt action rifles are a pretty shitty choice for a combat weapon, to be honest. It’s fine for a secret squirrel sneaking through the woods to shoot one person in the face before slithering away on his belly. It’s even more acceptable if you’re in a two man team and your spotter has a semiauto or better. But for someone alone, it’s terrible because it’s an offensive weapon suitable for a narrow purpose. It’s a shitty choice as a defensive weapon.

                        If I can get hundreds of yards of combat effective accuracy out of a semiauto or select fire weapon and have a vest full of 30 round mags at my immediate disposal, I think it’s a no brainer.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          More thoughts....

                          I would also make an argument against a suppressor. Like others have mentioned, in a scout role, the intent is probably not to make contact with the enemy. But my experience is that if someone walks up on you, even if it’s a reasonably large group, if you rock and roll on them you can get them diving for cover while you make your escape. I want the boom.

                          Not that I’m against suppressors. But if I were somewhere alone where I thought an armed enemy might walk up on me, I’d have the suppressor detached. Just my two cents.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Another random opinion. If I DID happen to want to sneak around and shoot people in the face with a suppressed bolt action rifle....depending on the exact situation and obviously the distance....I would actually consider a bolt action .22 long rifle. I know that’s sacrilege, basically. But if you want something that will suppress quiet as fuck to smoke people sneaky style at shorter distances in an urban environment, it could be mean.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Devil View Post
                              More thoughts....

                              I would also make an argument against a suppressor. Like others have mentioned, in a scout role, the intent is probably not to make contact with the enemy. But my experience is that if someone walks up on you, even if it’s a reasonably large group, if you rock and roll on them you can get them diving for cover while you make your escape. I want the boom.

                              Not that I’m against suppressors. But if I were somewhere alone where I thought an armed enemy might walk up on me, I’d have the suppressor detached. Just my two cents.
                              In a team that’s a solid drill. Putting down a heavy rate of fire in an initial contact is a good move, it creates space to think, it can make you look like a bigger force than than you actually are and cause the enemy to think about what they’ve got themselves into.

                              My only issue with it is that if you’re alone I’d rather conduct a fighting withdrawal with as little drama as possible but that’s working on the assumption that ‘scouting’ in this context means being on your own.
                              Ne Obliviscaris

                              Comment

                              Collapse

                              Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                              Working...
                              X