Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Army NGSW Competition

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Army NGSW Competition

    Time for something a little more technical in nature. As some may know, the Army is looking at moving away from 5.56. Interesting since they just got M855A1 rolling. For the time being, the competition seems focused on the Squad Automatic Weapon, currently filled by Mk46/48 and M249 SAW, as well as a battle rifle that could be a squad designated marksman rifle, or more likely a new "battle rifle." This whole competition is predicated on a TRADOC concept called Overmatch Doctrine, which essentially claims that we have lost the ability to overwhelm our opponents due to the prevalence of cheap ballistic armor. The new weapon will fire a 6.8mm projectile in the 120-140ish grain range at a specificed 3000-3400 fps.

    https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/...the-armys.aspx

    And now one of the ammunition providers has announced loaded ammunition for commercial sale:

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ierra-bullets/

    Polymer .50bmg has been a thing for awhile, so it is not as crazy an idea as it was previously.

    I'll offer my thoughts on this topic as well as the competitors and the chances of the concept to progress to Fielding in a bit, but don't want to immediately poison the well with them.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

    #2
    So, "battle rifle" would be a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle, correct, in the vein of a 03 Springfield or M-1 Garand, or maybe an semi-auto M-14 ?

    It's a bit unclear to me exactly what (other than a SAW) they are trying to do. Replace the M-4 ?

    From a glance at the 5.56mm replacement, they look bulkier and less handy than a M-4 with a 16" barrel.

    A 120-140 gr, 6.8 mm bullet at 3000-4000 fps is going to recoil more than a 5.56mm round as well, there is really no way around that problem. Higher mass, faster velocity...

    The polymer case ammo makes sense. Interesting to see what the real weight-savings would be.

    For historical comparison, the .276 Pedersen (7mm)...highest velocities with 120-140 gr. bullet I found was between 2800 and 2900 fps with a 120-130 gr. bullet.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

    Comment


      #3
      I just hope to god that we get all those surplus M4’s. It won’t happen but I can pray.
      Ne Obliviscaris

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Cassius View Post
        Time for something a little more technical in nature. As some may know, the Army is looking at moving away from 5.56. Interesting since they just got M855A1 rolling. For the time being, the competition seems focused on the Squad Automatic Weapon, currently filled by Mk46/48 and M249 SAW, as well as a battle rifle that could be a squad designated marksman rifle, or more likely a new "battle rifle." This whole competition is predicated on a TRADOC concept called Overmatch Doctrine, which essentially claims that we have lost the ability to overwhelm our opponents due to the prevalence of cheap ballistic armor. The new weapon will fire a 6.8mm projectile in the 120-140ish grain range at a specificed 3000-3400 fps.

        https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/...the-armys.aspx

        And now one of the ammunition providers has announced loaded ammunition for commercial sale:

        https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ierra-bullets/

        Polymer .50bmg has been a thing for awhile, so it is not as crazy an idea as it was previously.

        I'll offer my thoughts on this topic as well as the competitors and the chances of the concept to progress to Fielding in a bit, but don't want to immediately poison the well with them.
        Son of a...

        I just largely standardized on 9mm and 5.56 (and 22LR),

        in large part due to wide 9mm and 5.56 ammo availability and cost effectiveness,

        and now militaries and governments are moving to new round calibers away from 9mm and 5.56.

        Fucking Lucy had better not be pulling away my football...

        Makes me think about getting another couple ammo safes,

        and stockpiling an entire safe just for 9mm and 5.56 each now...

        I know people will post those round calibers aren't going anywhere,

        but even so...

        Comment


          #5
          So are we talking something different than the 6.8mm Remington SPC?
          Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
          –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

          Comment


            #6
            I like the sig offering even though I hate sig.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by ghost55 View Post
              I like the sig offering even though I hate sig.
              The P365 is a nice little concealed carry pistol.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
                The P365 is a nice little concealed carry pistol.
                The form factor and trigger is nice. The tendency to snap strikers is not. Sig has serious QC problems and uses their customers as beta testers.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                  So are we talking something different than the 6.8mm Remington SPC?
                  No way 6.8mm SPC gets a 120 gr. bullet to 3,000 fps...I looked up the loading data.

                  A .270 Winchester can get a 130 gr bullet to over 3000 fps. But that is a lot more recoil and muzzle blast. Comparable to 7.62 Nato...that can also launch a 130 grain bullet at 3,000 fps...although ballistic coefficient is not as good as a 6.8 mm bullet of same mass.

                  A 6.5 Creedemore gets a 140 gr bullet to around 2700 fps, maybe a little more.

                  So I'm interested to see what this new 6.8 round is going to be if they are getting 3,000 to 3400 fps...
                  Falling for Judo since 1980

                  "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                  "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                  "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by BKR View Post
                    No way 6.8mm SPC gets a 120 gr. bullet to 3,000 fps...I looked up the loading data.

                    A .270 Winchester can get a 130 gr bullet to over 3000 fps. But that is a lot more recoil and muzzle blast. Comparable to 7.62 Nato...that can also launch a 130 grain bullet at 3,000 fps...although ballistic coefficient is not as good as a 6.8 mm bullet of same mass.

                    A 6.5 Creedemore gets a 140 gr bullet to around 2700 fps, maybe a little more.

                    So I'm interested to see what this new 6.8 round is going to be if they are getting 3,000 to 3400 fps...
                    There are multiple different offerings. All of these will likely have awful barrel life. I'm wondering how they're going to improve the material used.to make barrels to.compensate.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by ghost55 View Post
                      The form factor and trigger is nice. The tendency to snap strikers is not. Sig has serious QC problems and uses their customers as beta testers.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Are they giving up on full auto from the shoulder from a rifle? The M-14 fired a round that would recoil about like this one, and it was not controllable in full auto. Or are they counting on a muzzle brake or something?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by AprilRains View Post
                          Are they giving up on full auto from the shoulder from a rifle? The M-14 fired a round that would recoil about like this one, and it was not controllable in full auto. Or are they counting on a muzzle brake or something?
                          Sig has two offerings. An LMG with a reciprocating barrel and a bullpup rifle. The LMG seems to be fairly pleasant to shoot. I haven't heard much about the bullpup. The M14 was a notoriously shitty rifle to shoot in full auto even off of a bipod. There is a reason the M14E2 never saw real use. The Mk17 on the other hand has been in use by SOCOM for years now and that thing has had a funswitch since day 1. It all comes down to how the action is designed imo.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by AprilRains View Post
                            Are they giving up on full auto from the shoulder from a rifle? The M-14 fired a round that would recoil about like this one, and it was not controllable in full auto. Or are they counting on a muzzle brake or something?
                            Sounds like they are looking for the F-35 of long arms, since DMR was mentioned in OP.

                            6.5 Creedmoor would be my unqualified vote. A bit heavy for the rest of the grunts, though, which is why we're still on 5.56 for general purpose shit.
                            Consider for a moment that there is no meme about brown-haired, brown-eyed step children.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by submessenger View Post
                              Sounds like they are looking for the F-35 of long arms, since DMR was mentioned in OP.

                              6.5 Creedmoor would be my unqualified vote. A bit heavy for the rest of the grunts, though, which is why we're still on 5.56 for general purpose shit.
                              I like the look of the .277 Sig Fury cartridge if they can get the barrels right. The obsession with "overmatch" is really stupid from where I'm standing. The fact that 7.62x54r can reach out a bit further than 7.62 NATO doesn't really matter. It's not an accurate cartridge at the extended ranges anyways. If the military wants more range and oomph than 5.56 provides, 6.5 Grendel makes a lot more sense than going back to battle rifles.

                              Comment

                              Collapse

                              Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                              Working...
                              X