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Maximizing what you get out of rolling

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  • JohnnyCache
    replied
    One thing no one mentioned - while your rolling partner is your momentary opponent, he's also your long term collaborator and team-mate, and you can communicate with him. I find talking while rolling and after has been very helpful. I was intensely frustrated by one member of our club's ability to totally control me every time, until I just smartened up and asked him for some advice on how to deal with him.

    Many people get so teeth-grittingly competitive that they forget they're there to elevate their game, not just work it tonight, and the best way to do that is collaborative effort with your classmates - when you conciously work to tear apart each other's games and re-assemble them, and share the information with each other, that's when you get innovation and adaptability, IMO. That's when you really tighten up as a school, as well.

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  • 'sco
    replied
    yeah, we got some crazy guys like that too.
    some of 'em won't tap even when their head is turning purple, or their arm is torn off.

    i'm like guys, it's not that serious, it's just training.
    they'll say that it wasn't hurting, then come in the next day complaining about their neck, arm, or something. and then still roll all crazy.

    i'm a fan of some intense training, but i'd like to learn something besides how far my arm can bend, or my neck torqued, or how much my knee can twist.
    i think i'd rather learn on how to not get in that position, yeah?

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  • SuperGuido
    replied
    Excellent thread!

    Personally, I tend to avoid submissions unless one just jumps out at me. I'm not at the level where I can chain sweeps to submissions to sweeps within 13 counter-move chains, so I typically just focus on improving my position.

    This is DOUBLY important for me because I'm a smaller guy (5'8", 150 lbs), and most of my training partners can muscle out of any sub I attempt to slap on. In addition, many subs sacrifice position, while sweeps tend to at least put you back into your original position...which, I've found, tends to prolong the match and allow me to train while in exhaustion mode....which actually reminds me of something.

    Train while exhausted.

    I see FAR too many white belts quit and leave the mat after one vigorous rolling session.

    NO! BAD WHITE BELT!

    Instead, look around for another exhausted white belt to roll with. Since you can't muscle your way through techniques, you're forced to play smarter rather than harder.

    One last thing I've found is how important it is to swith rolling partners between every "match". This is hard to do every class, but give it a shot when feasible. I've noticed that after the initial "intro roll" with other people, I tend to get VERY defensive and focus on countering their game from that point forward...

    ...which is great for a blue belt or above, but SUCKS for a white belt. We shouldn't be reactive at this level, but proactive in finding our own rhythms and approaching each rolling "match" as a way to flesh out our budding games.

    i.e. Last Thursday I rolled with a much more athletic white belt who spent the entire time trying to get an armbar from every conceivable position. After I tapped the first time, I approached the next roll with "If he does this, I'll do this" stuck in my head. Because of my fixation on HIS game rather than my own, I made very little progress in working the techniques I learned previously.

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  • PoleFighter
    replied
    I don't want to turn this into my personal rant-thread, but the stupidity of some of the people I train with is driving me nuts.

    A while ago one of my training partners was complaining about having plenty of injuries. If you watch him roll, it's not hard to see why that is: he goes full blast, 100% of the time and never taps. I advise him, that perhaps he should roll a bit more conservatively. After all, learning BJJ is a long term project, and if he's injured, he won't be able to train. His answer? "But what if I lose in class?" :qleft7:

    The other night, I was doing the drill where one guy tries to pass the others guard and then stop after sweep, submission or pass. I'm trying some new half guard stuff, screw up, and the guy gets me in a position where he can't pass, but I can't sweep him either. Clearly, he is the only one who can break the stalemate and make this time productive to us both. But no. He decides to simply lay there until I'm so bored I just open my guard and let him pass so I don't waste any more time.

    I seriously think the first lesson in a BJJ school should adress how to roll, and how to use sparring time. I am just sick of some guys' attitude.

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  • Charles Choi
    replied
    I like this thread. I've been thinking of late, the process of training that Michael Jen said was most effective. Let's think of it as 'training' for sparring.

    He suggests that you isolate your training aspects (eg, triangle choke), so that you build up your knowledge, apply it in light, medium then heavy resistance. What most people would call modified drilling under resistance.

    His argument is this (and I think it is valid), that when you go into a "let's just spar and hit the triangle choke" mode, then you'll probably only practice the technique partially and you won't be focussing on the triangle choke solely (eg you'll have to stop making him pass you guard, you have to escape to guard etc).

    So, his suggestion is to practice the key element you want (in the modified resistance drill), and work out with that technique so that your training and effective workout ratio is increased many, many times over.

    If you look at the equation, it kinda makes sense: Hit triangle in sparring 3 times over 30 minutes versus, hitting the triangle under varying resistances 50 times in 15 minutes. I'm not saying 'don't spar', but there are effective ways of training for sparring. Thoughts?

    -Charles

    Training partners that I consider so much weaker than myself that they pose zero threat: I'm basically a nice guy and help them with everything I can. In return I experiment with new techniques or give them good positions (although I make them work for it) and escape. For example, there is a man (maybe mid to late fifties) who can't do anything to me unless I let him. However, for some reason, this guy has a hellish side mount. He feels like a ton of bricks. So why spend the entire session sweeping and submitting him when I could use that absolutely insane amount of pressure he can put on me from side mount to practice my escapes?

    Training partners that I can tap if I put some effort in: I play to my weakness and their strengths. I.e. if I think someone has a strong passing game, I will pull guard, because that is my weakest area, and refrain from using the guards that I feel comfortable in, like half guard. This makes for a more challenging roll. Sometimes I get tapped because of this, but I feel it's worth it in the long run because it will make me more well rounded. I also give up positons sometimes.

    Training partners that I consider my equal or a bit better: I will play to my own strength, which is guard passing. I generally roll more competitively, but with control, of course, because this is training not competition.

    Training partners that destroy me at will: I go slow so they can observe my game, point out major errors and I can observe how they do things. I've learnt TONS this way. I always try to ask at least one question afterwards.
    Last edited by Charles Choi; 10/29/2006 7:34pm, .

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  • Oscar Goldman
    replied
    Originally posted by steve_990
    I've considered the logging idea for awhile too... do you guys that have done it and stopped feel like you learnt better while you were taking notes than when you stopped?
    I definitely get a ton of benefit from writing stuff out. It may be a few weeks before I see something again and if I try it and fuck it up in the meantime I can read back through the steps.

    Days after a practice I write out my notes while I drink my coffee. I love that notebook, I'm injured right now and I read it and my technique books all the time.

    I've been training grappling for about a year now somewhat inconsistently due to other responsibilities and I'm really grateful I took good notes while learning the basics, it has helped a lot.

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  • ViciousFlamingo
    replied
    Thanks for all this advice, this is great stuff!

    A question about keeping notes/logs: Do you generally write down what you did each day? I keep my grappling notes extremely well organized, but not by time. I organize all techniques first by position, then by what type of technique it is (submission, pass, escape, etc.) and whether it's offensive or defensive. I have further subsections for performing the technique, the most important things to remember (kind of like the fundamental fives, but not necessarily five), counters, recounters. I keep going back to my notes whenever I have time and clarifying or correcting stuff that I've written before, or adding in new stuff. I feel like it helps me remember and break down my techniques, and allows me to see in a visual way where my game is lacking or places that I can head in development.

    But then again, maybe I'm just being obsessive-compulsive about this. I've only been grappling for a relatively short time, and I have maybe 75 pages of notes, probably more. What do other peoples' notes/logs look like?
    Last edited by ViciousFlamingo; 5/10/2007 12:26am, .

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  • PoleFighter
    replied
    I used my log as a reference. Now I use books and DVDs for that purpose. I mostly read books in order to solve problems that I've encountered. For example, I found that most of the guys I was rolling with where getting wise to how I turned them over from turtle, so I checked out Saulo's DVD on the back, and I noticed what I could do to improve my move.

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  • steve_990
    replied
    I've considered the logging idea for awhile too... do you guys that have done it and stopped feel like you learnt better while you were taking notes than when you stopped?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ktulu
    replied
    :5moped: This is grappling noob gold. Thanks dudes!

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  • Teh El Macho
    replied
    Meh, I tried the drawing stuff, but it's too time consuming. I better stick to write them in notepad or in my bullshido log. The nice thing about writing the logs in a PC is that you can edit it, adding details and corrections. For me, it has to be very detailed, verbosed and mechanical. By the time I finish writing it, it's in my head and I can remember better when rolling.

    What helps me is to write my log right after class, when it's fresh in my mind. The bad part is that I may stay late at night trying to type it down until I'm satisfied with it.

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  • MartialArtN00b
    replied
    I have to admit, keeping a log helps. But its also time consuming.

    At the beginning, id draw every techniques ive learned in class. Putting it little side notes.
    For every steps of a technique, id have a front/side/top view.

    1 hour of drawing everyday.

    I kept at it for a couple of week.

    I think the best part of it, is that afterwards, even after two months of not touching my log book, i only needed to flip the pages to have a refresher.

    I should start logging again.

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  • Teh El Macho
    replied
    Originally posted by DDale
    It makes absolute sense to me. Once I relaised I could beat some people I started to vary what stuf I tried each session and tried heavily working on whatever I was worst at.

    For example for a good while Id fall on my back and let people who were ok but not up to my standard see what they could do and Id try to sweep them using as little strength as possible. This eventually led to my sweeps being feared by training partners who are far better than me in othter areas.

    Sometimes I try retarded stuff like turtleing up for no reason just to see what happens and giving people my foot just to see if I can get out of the heel hook.
    He he, I like to do that as well, with the intention of getting up (and force them to stand up), or to see how to get them off by back when they take it. It almost never works, but whatever.

    As I get to know the other pple on the mat better, I feel more comfortable, and less affraid to roll and push the pace and be more aggressive. I'm actually looking forward to get submitted because each time it's different.

    I try to make mental notes about everything that happens, preferably as it is happening. Then I try some quick Q&A with whoever I'm rolling with. And if there is something I clearly remember, I try to write it in a log as metodically detailed as possible. It may take me an hour or more just to write the details the way I'd like somebody to explain the to me. It takes time to log stuff, but it's worth it.

    Details, details, metodical precious fucking details. That seems to work best for me.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 10/25/2006 10:36am, .

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  • DDale
    replied
    Originally posted by PoleFighter
    So, any thoughts on this?
    It makes absolute sense to me. Once I relaised I could beat some people I started to vary what stuf I tried each session and tried heavily working on whatever I was worst at.

    For example for a good while Id fall on my back and let people who were ok but not up to my standard see what they could do and Id try to sweep them using as little strength as possible. This eventually led to my sweeps being feared by training partners who are far better than me in othter areas.

    Sometimes I try retarded stuff like turtleing up for no reason just to see what happens and giving people my foot just to see if I can get out of the heel hook.

    Leave a comment:


  • chingythingy
    replied
    I try to vary it up on different days. Some days I want to work top game, others bottom. Lately I haven't been in the cerebral trying to plan out 3 moves ahead mode, but more trying to flow and take what I'm given. If I run into something I have trouble with, finishing, escapes, attacks, etc. I make a mental note and try and drill it with someone after rolling finishes.

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