The tao of NSLightsOut: Training, stagnation and tapping

[fanatical]

Fuck Wing Chun.

[Mjelva]

Fuck Wing Chun.

From now on, this will be known simply as 'FWC'.
Please take note.

[JohnnyS]

Great post Yrkoon9.

One of the things that Rigan told me to work on was my defence, and this was also backed up by John Will saying to everyone to do the same. I've started to work it and last night at training I was working my defence and got armbarred by a good brown belt. I could have thought "I better tap him quick so he doesn't get the wrong idea", but I controlled my ego and just kept trying to work what I needed to. I'm not going to tell anyone it's easy to lose the ego, but I will tell them it's necessary for continued growth.

[NSLightsOut]

I am not ego-less. And I laugh at those people who say they are. It's a lie. Nobody likes to tap out or be dominated.

I definitely agree with your sentiments. I don't like tapping out, or being positionally dominated by anyone. However, I'm even more annoyed if I don't learn anything from the experience, be it training or competition.

I actually let go of the choke. Why? Because I didn't want my fingers to get tired and lose my grip for the later matches. FEAR.

It sucks to actually say I am guilty of this. But I am. I'll bet we all are in one way or other.

But then on the other hand I sincerely look forward to rolling with the higher belts or the bigger guys because it is a real challenge. So I know it isn't neccessarily a fear of losing. I have lost plenty. The novelty has worn off there. But losing to someone who isn't as good as me? I don't like that. Let's be honest there IS a heirarchy at the gym. It might not just be belt colors. But eatting your way up the food chain feels good. Getting eatten by lower fishies is not cool.

So what I am saying is although I KNOW what the right thing to do is I don't always do it.

I think has Johnny said earlier that defense is the key to measuring success. I think I said something similar in the Guantanamo thread. Seeing guys that used to be able to eat you not tapping you really shows improvement.

It breaks down to this: We are all motivated for different reasons. Some people are motivated by fear, and others by success. Many times being motivated by fear is negative while being motivated by success is positive.

Looking through my own training logs I see that I am motivated by both. The thought of doing very well against Spangler makes me happy. The thought of seeing my old training partner tapping me makes me sad. I think that is sorta natural and as long as you are aware of it you are okay.

Looking back through my training logs I am reminded of a guy I punked out at one class. He tried to snipe one of our guys and I called him on it. He sat the entire class on the wall talking to the instructor. And when one of my buddies rolled and rolled and rolled until well after class was over and then rolled some more. I was actually fully dressed and leaving when this guy calls my buddy to train on the mat. My bud was completely exhausted. I was like...oh hell no. I told him straight out he was sniping. If he wanted to train he could have joined the class. If he wanted to roll he could have done it during sparring. But going after the most tired guy in class after the instructor is gone so you have a shot at tapping a higher belt is bullshit. It got sorta ugly and I am the kinda person who tells you what I think.

Another incident came at my old school around the time I started. One of the kids dads did 'no-gi' only over at LVCC. He was much bigger than me and asked me to roll. Before we started he was pretty clear that he was a headhunter. He didn't even recognize it. But he was all like...So far I have got a couple of purple belts and a brown belt. Someday I will tap a black. I was like.....uhhh ok. Then I proceeded to just maul his ass. I guess since I was only doing gi work back then he thought it would be an easy notch on his belt. It wasn't. But had he tapped me somehow through some fluke I am sure it would have been another notch on his belt. A belt which was invisible to anyone but him, and in reality meant nothing because he didn't even have the skills of a blue belt.

I agree with your statement on motivations (fear = unhealthy, drive for success = healthy). A certain level of competitiveness is healthy, beyond that is definitely not healthy, potentially leading to the "headhunter" mentality that you've addressed quite succinctly. I actually intend to address this further tomorrow or Saturday, when I have some time to arrange my thoughts about the role of the team and duties of the individual in training into a coherent form.

I think we all think about the pecking order to a certain extent when it comes to organising our own training/who we train with for what purpose (ie. Person X is technical and a better grappler than me, but rips subs and sweeps on with dangerous strength/speed. I'm going to avoid rolling with him while I'm injured. Person Y is on the same level as me, and is good for a technical war. Person Z is a random white belt, etc.).

However, in my experience it seems to promote that "headhunter" mentality in training. I've been guilty of it to a certain extent in the past. However, when I started to become competitive with the better guys I train with, whilst it was gratifying, actually submitting a higher belt seemed to bring on far less elation than it had previously. I hadn't been gunning for them, just trying to compete with the same intensity as I do with people at my own belt level.

Believe me, I'm not trying to deride the competitive drive. I'm driven to succeed both on the mat and in competition, like most people who make it past the first month of training. I just believe that it can be taken to an unhealthy, unhelpful place when it is overemphasised in training. Once again, I'd like to address this further within the next few days.

[Yrkoon9]

I need a 12 step ego program for real. I know it sounds funny but it's true. I could get a lot more out of my training if I worried about the OTHER guy less.

[fanatical]

I see where you're coming from though Yrkoon. You're way way way ahead of me and I'm struggling with the same problems. The beating yourself up bit rings a bell with me. I'm such a retard I've been injured twice by idiots slapping on crazy heel hooks and the like and every time I keep thinking "I should have seen it coming. I should have tapped sooner."

I've succumbed to this now myself. First I thought I'd never get this stuff, but I've suddenly started to measure myself up against others. I didn't really notice it until a month ago. And I started thinking that there's this one guy I knew was really good, and if I could get him, then I would know I had progressed. I felt like I was at a plateu and I couldn't get off. I felt and still feel like I'm not improving. Although some say I'm just not noticing it myself. But it grinds on me and takes my mind off just enjoying and learning.

Slowly but surely I have stopped getting subs. I started looking at why. One theory is that people have learnt my game. They know what I'll go for and stop me before I get a chance.

Another is that they have caught up to me and they're just getting as good and better than me.

Yet another is that I've lost skill somehow. That I haven't had my mind in the right place and have paid for it by loss of concentration and stagnation in skill.

And finally that I just never was as good as I thought I was.


Then it hit me just the other day right before this thread was posted, that fucking hell, it's all of it. I have to just face up to the fact that I've messed up my own progress in training. I have to take a good long look at what I'm doing and find a way to fix this. So far I'm working on it. And while this thread adresses the diagnostic, it doesn't so much present a cure. But then again the cure might be entirely personal depending on who is having a problem.

I have been very close to just giving up and quitting because I felt NO progress at all. But then again. Finding out what's fucking you up.. is progress in itself.

[MONGO]

One of the things that I have found is good to keep the ego/urge to win at bay is only focusing on a small part of your 'skill' each night.

I like to think that I try to work on what I want to do that doesn't work well on my opponent during that particular randori/rolling session. If I have a smaller, faster opponent, I try to short curcuit their game by doing what particular skills I need to do it. That way if I lose, it is clear that that particular skill needs work. Its not that he is better or I shouldn't have gotten caught, its that particular skill is not up to snuff yet.

Everybody gets caught somedays, I learn more from losing because it gives you the opportunity to see your weaknesses from the outside and not have to resort to postulating about your suckage.

I think the hallmark of a good fighter/martial artist is they have a clear plan or at least the knowledge of what is their particular weakness at anytime. Once you know it sucks, a plan to improve it is much easier to come by.

[NSLightsOut]

Then it hit me just the other day right before this thread was posted, that fucking hell, it's all of it. I have to just face up to the fact that I've messed up my own progress in training. I have to take a good long look at what I'm doing and find a way to fix this. So far I'm working on it. And while this thread adresses the diagnostic, it doesn't so much present a cure. But then again the cure might be entirely personal depending on who is having a problem.

I have been very close to just giving up and quitting because I felt NO progress at all. But then again. Finding out what's fucking you up.. is progress in itself.

The cure seems to be very individual. I've been lucky enough to never really have a plateau period of longer than a month. As Mongo mentioned, having a training plan really seems to help. Take a good look at what you seem to be doing wrong, create a long-term list of techniques to work and positions to start training in, implement it, and modify it as needed when you get some feedback.

It's a hard and painful process, but ultimately worthwhile.

[JohnnyCache]

I try to take pride in my club and my instruction. If I'm proud to be part of a club that challenges me, then being beaten helps my ego.

If that makes sense. I mean, I wouldn't want to train at a place where I could tap everyone unless I was getting paid to teach...

[Sophist]

I've definitely been guilty of this. It was only after my first private lesson a little over a week ago that I learned what was wrong with my attitude.

I think in part it's not just ego, with me, but laziness. I can get away with not working as hard against a less clued opponent, so if I'm feeling at all tired by the time sparring rolls round, I'm more inclined to pair with someone who I need less effort to beat. There's no glory in tapping out newbie white belts, you don't leave the class feeling that you accomplished anything; but if you're afraid of giving away a tap to someone "worse" than yourself, you'll work the things you always use and not experiment.

The conversation with my instructor a few days ago helped me look at it in a new light. Some parts of my game are stronger than others; for example, my guard and mount are much better than my side control (on top or underneath), and under side control I always tend to shrimp back to guard, which I can do reasonably well, with the result that other escapes get neglected. I knew there was a problem there, and so I asked my instructor to take a look at it.

He made the point that the reason I was so hazy with other escapes was because I wasn't working them enough, and part of the reason I wasn't working them enough was because I was trying to "win" instead of work on technique. So since then I've been making a concerted effort to get into positions where I need to work on techniques, instead of staying in my comfort zone. Instead of using the same old mildly-effective stable of techniques to prevent better people passing my guard, I've started letting them take side control when it's a decent pass, and working my escapes from there. And conversely, to help me work on defensive positions, I've started letting newbies pull off the sweeps they've been working in class and get me on the bottom. And it's early to say, but I think it's making a difference.

[PointyShinyBurn]

At my club the instructor makes the matches for at least the first couple of rounds of sparring. You will get matched up against people who pose a specific threat to your game.

[FictionPimp]

I almost excuslivly train with people who are better skilled then I am or at least as skilled as me (of course i'm very low on the totem pole). I always feel like i'm in a stalemate or being pressed on the defensive. A few days ago I rolled with one of the higher ranks in our class and he let me work. He played laid back and kept his defenses up and only submitted me maybe 2 or 3 times. I learned 100 times more with him then I do with my normal partners. This made me realize that I had the wrong mentality too when I was rolling. After that I got paired up with a guy with only 2 weeks training. This was a huge eye opener for me. I realized I could basically control this guy and submit him at will. Instead though, I took a page from my previous partners book and just kept him working. I would put him in side control or my guard and keep him busy. Anytime he slowed down I would press a submission attempt to keep him working. He seemed to have a great time and I was really impressed at how he learned to avoid mistakes that were putting him in danger over the course of our training.

[fanatical]

The cure seems to be very individual. I've been lucky enough to never really have a plateau period of longer than a month. As Mongo mentioned, having a training plan really seems to help. Take a good look at what you seem to be doing wrong, create a long-term list of techniques to work and positions to start training in, implement it, and modify it as needed when you get some feedback.

It's a hard and painful process, but ultimately worthwhile.

Hell yes is it ever individual. I've come to understand that everything in JJ is. I've been going on like this for a couple of months, but I'm figuring out some steps to take.

I used to write a training log. Then my schedule got a little busy and I stopped. And I didn't start again when I got some extra time back. Training log has to be started.

I'm going to write down everything I know. Everything I can remember just to get it down. To see for myself what I can remember about techniques, positions etc. Maybe I'll get some kind of overview over what I'm lacking.

But some things are loosening up. The other day I got a textbook scissor sweep. Now to some this might be daft. But I'm always the smallest guy in class and initiating a sweep is usually a problem. I get laid on and shut down pretty quick whenever I threaten a sweep. This kind of reflects back on what others have said here too. About letting people work. Perhaps I subconsciously on some level have just stopped trying because it never works. I haven't really thought like that, but we live and learn I suppose.

Point is that when I got that sweep.. and sweeps being an area I suck at. (I usually get passed, have to reverse and pass guard to get a better position. ) But just getting it that one time.. it could have been a total fluke, but just that little piece of success got me thinking that maybe something is loosening up.

It may just be wishful thinking. But I've always let people who are worse than me get different positions. Because my guard is my strongest aspect(imho) I could just as well kept them there the entire class and just waited to submit them. I might have been a little cheap on letting them submit me, ego does come into play. But I'm kind of hoping that when they are allowed to pass and allowed to try stuff, they get the same feeling I get when I'm successful at stuff I usually suck at. Motivation, and drive to keep going.

This is getting kind of long winded, and there's no training this weekend, so I can't really get any feedback until next week :/ But then again, this thread isn't about me. So fuck you guys :P

[PoleFighter]

Wow, this thread is awesome. I was going to share a story, but then I just felt like such an idiot for thinking the way I did.

The moral is: losing sucks for everyone. Grown ups learn what they can and keep the overall goal of being the best they can be and having fun at the same time in mind. Children cry about it.

Edit: I actually think this subject is so important that some kind of FAQ about how to make the most of your training should be made, with this kind of reasoning as its centerpiece.

[NSLightsOut]

Part the Third: BJJ as a team sport - the academy/team as gestalt

I've been planning to write this for quite a long time, but life and the postgraduate studies that now consume much of said life have been in my way.

So without further ado...

BJJ as a team sport

It's a strange concept, in some ways. We spar as an individual and compete mano a mano, yet teamwork from my perspective seems to be one of the greatest components for success in BJJ. Like many young Aussies, I've done a fair bit of travel. On those travels I've stopped into a number of BJJ academies, craving some training like the addict that I am. Honestly, a number of them...just don't feel homelike. The academy I train at, Peter de Been's St Kilda academy ( www.peterdebeen.com ) has a very tight-knit group mentality, which is one of the things that drew me there in the first place, my fellow teammates believing that it is one of the essential ingredients that brings about our competition success. I haven't got that at a number of larger academies, which feel more like...black belt production lines than an actual supportive team.

Granted, I haven't trained at at least one of the places I'd categorise as lacking this team feel for anything resembling a long period of time, but on the other hand I've immediately recognized places with a similar team dynamic to my home academy whilst travelling.

Before I go on, I'd like to apologize for the rambling nature of this article. I got drunk last night, and suspect that I'm still at least partially under the influence due to insomnia.

Why teamwork is beneficial

One of my teammates started up his own school under the auspices of my instructor about a year and a half ago, and has acheived significant competition success with his white belt students, considering the limited amount of time that he has been in operation and the need to build his own student skill pool from scratch. Part of his orientation to each new student includes the admonition that they have joined a team, and just as the team supports them, they are bound to support the team by sharing knowledge, helping the less experienced and so on. In my teammates words, he does not want to train anyone who does not support the team.

For the record, his guys are as close-knit a team that I've ever seen. I would train with them with no hesitations whatsoever, and wholeheartedly recommend them to anyone looking for training in the area. With another instructor from our team in a nearby areas, he's started a number of joint programs, such as white belt tournaments to give novices greater competition experiences and open mats to experience differing styles of rolling to the academy norm.

From my own experience, I began training at my current academy as an overly defensive, fairly crappy white belt. During my first summer there, I spent long periods of time being triangled by one of the blue belts (averaging about five times a session) being swept, and generally getting owned by all and sundry. They took the time to explain to me exactly what I was doing wrong, which resulted in me progressing more in three months than I had during the previous nine. That kind of environment, to which I have contributed in turn, has been responsible for making me into the BJJer I am today, and has made others progress similarly within very short timeframes.

I'd like to hear any opinions as to how teamwork has aided the progress of others. Hopefully I can reply when I've completely sobered up (On a side note, Chimay Grand Reserve is a fucking awesome way to get smashed!)