Bad form or use your genetics?

[Gringo Grande]

Aesopian,

What is the general consensus amongst the BJJ Gods regarding the use of pure force in a situation such as this? Bad form in general or if you can do it, do it?

If someone has the mount on you and you are able to place your fists on or around their pelvis and basically press them up as you upa...is this generally considered a bad habit to get into as opposed to working to replace some type of guard and/or sweep?

The main reason I ask is I've done this to very light people in the past (under 200 pounds) but the other day I stopped by my friend's Krav class and launched someone who was 230-240.

I'm assuming someone who was a bit more skilled on the ground would either have me better controlled via grapevining their legs or maintaining their balance to keep me from launching them into orbit?

GG

[Cassius]

I personally don't like trying to buck someone who is my skill level or better like that, especially if they are close to my weight. I might do it once or twice just to see what they do, or to keep things unpredictable, but not generally for much more than that, or for very long, because . . . well . . . I'm lazy and don't like to expend a lot of unnecessary energy.

Generally, when someone my skill level or better is mounted on me, I don't do massive Upas. It's a way to tire yourself out. What I generally do is a combo of smaller, faster upas and ebbies (shrimps, whatever). My only real goal when doing this is to distract the person and unbalance them long enough to dig my elbow into one their legs, making space to do a real ebby and get my knee through. From there you can stop at half guard, or you can do the smarter thing and utilize the space you've just made to regain full guard.

I will place the hands on the pelvis to brace and push, though. As long as your arms are planted, I don't see a whole lot of risk. Might want to confer with someone that has a tighter escape game than me, though.

One related technique that is kind of fun to try occasionally:

If my opponent is mounted on me, but leans a bit too far back, sometimes I will give a little shove to my opponent's pelvis, upa and bring one knee part of the way through, bring the other leg up and into the hip (think the standard heel hook/ankle lock setup, except your opponent is upright instead of on his back, and you are on your back instead of upright), then push up with your legs a bit (pushing him onto his back wouldn't be a bad thing here) and secure the heel hook on the leg you just wrapped with your leg.

Just something fairly different to play with if you get bored and can halfway visualize what I'm describing.

[NSLightsOut]

GG,

what you've just described is my bog-standard mount escape, with one exception - hand position and foot position.

You'll find there is a natural groove between the hips and thighs, where your thumb and spread hands will fit in quite nicely. This will give you greater pushing power

If at all possible, try to get your feet on the inside of your opponent's feet before you start upa-ing like a bronco. This will save you much energy, and ensure that your opponent goes flying with an absolute minimum of effort.

When done technically, this escape doesn't require a lot of strength. I pressure-tested it late last year in drills to see how long I could continuously do it for. I went through the entire class of about fifty people twice before I got exhausted, giving every single one of my opponents exactly what they wanted, including double underhooks and grapevines in many cases.

I've worked this on a number of good black belts before, with success in all but two cases. Trust me, it works well when you get it down

[Gringo Grande]

My biggest fear as I enter into "teh deadly grapple" once again after a year off is using the crappling I had from before. I've got size and what most people would consider a decent amount of strength so I'm scared to death of using strength instead of technique which I know is generally an issue with big guys.

GG

[NSLightsOut]

That's a fair point. I've got a similar issue, being at the start of the heavier end of my academy's weight spectrum (I walk around at 88kgs/194 pounds).

I used to be a more strength oriented grappler, up until the point where I adopted an indifferent attitude as to what position I ended up in whilst training (Side control? Great, time to practice shrimping to guard. Half-guard? Fantastic, I need to work my sweeping from here).

Once you view every possible position in a positive light whilst training, your learning curve is much steeper than otherwise possible.

As to the mount escape example: Mount is a precarious position as compared to side control and NS. Your weight from the top is balancing on very few points, and it isn't very difficult to take those points away, at which juncture even lifting someone over the magic 100kg mark isn't too difficult, as you're using your entire body to lift a weight that is already off balanced.

[Cassius]

I used to be a more strength oriented grappler, up until the point where I adopted an indifferent attitude as to what position I ended up in whilst training (Side control? Great, time to practice shrimping to guard. Half-guard? Fantastic, I need to work my sweeping from here).

This is the exact attitude I try to adopt. I treat everything I do when training as an opportunity to practice.

Most of the time I am trying to work on a specific position, so I will work to get to that one. Currently, I am working on my bottom game, so it is not exactly difficult to end up there . . .

[jnp]

Here's the thing about using strength vs. technique. Sooner or later you're going to have a partner who is stronger and/or heavier than you are. How will your strength and size aid you then? If you always rely on strength versus technique how will you perform when you're exhausted? This is one of the primary reasons technique is so heavily emphasized in Bjj.

I regularly roll with a guy who weighs one hundred pounds more than I do. Am I stronger than he is? Hell no! But I regularly dominate him on the mat because my technique is better.

So don't become reliant on strength. It won't always be there for you, and there is always someone bigger and stronger out there so focus on your technique. Plus there is nothing more devastating than a big guy with excellent technique.

[Cassius]

Here's the thing about using strength vs. technique. Sooner or later you're going to have a partner who is stronger and/or heavier than you are. How will your strength and size aid you then? If you always rely on strength versus technique how will you perform when you're exhausted? This is one of the primary reasons technique is so heavily emphasized in Bjj.

I regularly roll with a guy who weighs one hundred pounds more than I do. Am I stronger than he is? Hell no! But I regularly dominate him on the mat because my technique is better.

So don't become reliant on strength. It won't always be there for you, and there is always someone bigger and stronger out there so focus on your technique. Plus there is nothing more devastating than a big guy with excellent technique.

[Thaiboxerken]

Garbanzo said he's working on his bottom game.

Haw Haw!!

[Aesopian]

Revelent Thorntonism:

How do you know if you are training technically?

You have to ask yourself if you are pacthing up weaknesses in your game, technical holes, areas where you may lack skill, with superior attributes. And if you are, you have to willing to shelf your own ego long enough to stop doing that.

In other words, if you can rip out of an armbar using explosiveness and speed, or escape a triangle by picking up your opponent, or escape bottom by bench pressing the person on top. . .should you?

The answer is an obvious no. Within the Gym you want your training to be as technical as possible. So if you are getting caught with armbars, find out WHY? And then find a technical solution that will work against larger and stronger opponents. This way, when you find yourself matched against a bigger, stronger, faster opponent, you will still have game.

Although this seems like common sense, it is often very hard for some people to do. And those athletes that have trouble doing this will eventually find themselves falling behind the others in the class. They may dominate at first with superior athleticism. But as time passes and the smaller athletes gain more skill, they will eventually find themselves getting caught. And this is where a mature Coach needs to speak to the athlete one on one about how and why they train.

Does this mean we don't want to seek to become stronger and faster?

Asolutely not!

We want to train the body, the vehicle, as well as the skillset. We just want to make sure that the power of the vehicle is not masking a technical hole in the game of the driver.

That way when our athletes enter competition they will have a strong, and in shape body, AND a high level of technical proficiency. Not a strong and in shape body, in place of a technical proficiency.

[NSLightsOut]

I'm trying to imagine how one could wristlock from here, and I'm failing.

Please share the technique

[Red Elvis]

Shit, my problem has always been the opposite. Typically people are bigger and stronger then me so I am used to relying on my speed and technique. There is also plenty of room for me to move around them. The people who give me the most problems ironically are guys my size and speed. Not used to dealing with people as fast as me and it turns into a friggen cat fight blur of action. Good for the 'ol cardio though.

As for the push on the hips escape. Easily solved when they tuck in their legs or grapevine.

The best grappling compliment I've ever recived was from a purple belt at another school that said that I "rolled like a little guy." .

I'm offended! :icon_mad:

But in all seriousness I had a instructor who could and did play all games. He also tought what worked best for your size and style which was awesome. Have never found that since. It was funny wathcing him roll because he was always just a little better than the guy he was with. One minute you'd see him with a blue and think "man, is that all he's got". Then you'd see him with another black and he'd still just barely be ahead. But he was always ahead whether playing light and fast against a purple or big and strong against a black. Weird.

[Shawarma]

Question: Has anyone had any experience with somebody so huge and powerful they barely needed technique and thus had problems learning finesse in their techniques? How did they work around it?

[Red Elvis]

Question: Has anyone had any experience with somebody so huge and powerful they barely needed technique and thus had problems learning finesse in their techniques? How did they work around it?

Yes and I don't know. The guy ripped my collar bone from my sternum and after I came back from months of healing and no training he was gone. Fucker... :confused1

[Cassius]

Question: Has anyone had any experience with somebody so huge and powerful they barely needed technique and thus had problems learning finesse in their techniques? How did they work around it?

Yes, I fought a guy like that in the last tournament and I don't think he has ever bothered to learn much technique. 6'6"+ and weighed in at 333. KhorneliusPraxx saw him. I weighed in at 243 for the tourney, and he literally grabbed both sides of my collar, picked me up by them, and threw me down. The guy that faced him after actually got backmounted on him, but Gojira just smothered him. It was disturbing.

He ended up just forcing my body to the mat and getting a kimura.

Hence my recent obsession with improving my bottom game.

On the other hand, a guy that weighed about 400 pounds used to train at our school, and he actually had fairly good technique for his size. He was pretty gentle.

For me, learning good technique has always been a result of me asking myself "Can I do what I'm doing right now for the next 20 minutes, or will my muscles tire out from it?" For the basic game, if the answer is "I'm going to get really tired," then I try to relax, stop using strength, and pick a better option.