Omoplata - is it legal in Judo?

[Yamabushi]

Shoulder locks are forbidden in Judo competition so I was surprised when, flicking through Syd Hoare's book The A-Z of Judo, I came across ashi-sangaku-garami, which looks suspiciously like an omoplata to me.

Interestingly Hoare says "As the attacker leans forward so the pressure comes on the elbow joint". Eddie Bravo says of the omoplata (in Jiu Jitsu Unleashed) that "With a tremendous amount of pressure being placed on [the victim's]...shoulder, he is forced to tap."

My guess is that Hoare knows that ashi-sangaku-garami attacks the shoulder but nods it through as an elbow lock.

I couldn't find a definitive statement outlawing the omoplata in Judo competition but I did find a couple of posts on Judo forums that implied it was. Hoare's book was published in 1994 and it wasn't illegal then (banned techniques are shown but marked as being outlawed).

I couldn't get onto the IJF website to check there so I was wondering if anyone here had a definitive answer.

[dramaboy]

It is legal. In Best Judo they call it Ashi Garami (I think).
Just make sure you get it quick whe you use it in a judo tournament.

The "elbow joint only" thing in judo is not that clear cut. Uri garami (kimura) also attacks the shoulder joint from certain angles, and yet is completely legal in judo.

Tomas

Shoulder locks are forbidden in Judo competition so I was surprised when, flicking through Syd Hoare's book The A-Z of Judo, I came across ashi-sangaku-garami, which looks suspiciously like an omoplata to me.

Interestingly Hoare says "As the attacker leans forward so the pressure comes on the elbow joint". Eddie Bravo says of the omoplata (in Jiu Jitsu Unleashed) that "With a tremendous amount of pressure being placed on [the victim's]...shoulder, he is forced to tap."

My guess is that Hoare knows that ashi-sangaku-garami attacks the shoulder but nods it through as an elbow lock.

I couldn't find a definitive statement outlawing the omoplata in Judo competition but I did find a couple of posts on Judo forums that implied it was. Hoare's book was published in 1994 and it wasn't illegal then (banned techniques are shown but marked as being outlawed).

I couldn't get onto the IJF website to check there so I was wondering if anyone here had a definitive answer.

[Yrkoon9]

I've seen it in several Judo books. Most notably in Best Judo.

So I would say its legal. The Judo 'rule' saying armlocks may only attack the elbow joint is a joke.

[nerveasian]

The canon of acceptable submission holds seems to vary a lot from place to place. There are probably some tournaments that will actually disqualify you for targeting the shoulder, but there are definitely a bunch who will allow it, especially when confronted with an illustration from a reputable sourcebook.

I was taught the omoplata as sankaku-garami, and my instructor said that, like ude-garami, it's in theory supposed to target the elbow but in practice ends up wrenching the shoulder because of imprecise application. He said that as long as you can get a tap, the judge will call ippon and seldom will it be challenged.

[fanatical]

Ude garami at no point targets the elbow.

Neither does the omo plata.

Calling them elbow locks are just plain wrong.

[dakotajudo]

Ude garami at no point targets the elbow.

Neither does the omo plata.

Calling them elbow locks are just plain wrong.

I wouldn't be so absolutist about that. I remember a judo tournament, about a year ago, one guy fought off ude-garami for a good bit of the match.

Had to wrap his elbow after the match - that's what got hurt.

Ude garami done properly does attack the elbow; done in a rush, it attacks the shoulder. Kinda like hadaka-jime - done right it's a carotid strangle, but most people in competition do the choke version to get the submission quickly.

[dramaboy]

Ude garami at no point targets the elbow.

It does from certain angle.
From judoinfo.com:
" Udegarami can be done to apply pressure to the shoulder or the elbow. In Judo we try to achieve the armbar pressure on the elbow since it is the more efficient and effective version. The two key points that make ude garami work effectively against the elbow when you are in the basic udegarami position shown below are: 1) the arm should not be bent very far (90 degrees is too much), and 2) the elbow should be pulled towards the belt."

This is shoulder http://www.grapplearts.com/Images/Gr...ra-5-small.jpg
and this is elbow
http://judoinfo.com/images/kimuragracie.jpg
(remember, Helio's elbow was broken)

Tomas

[PointyShinyBurn]

Ude garami done properly does attack the elbow; done in a rush, it attacks the shoulder.

In my experience you torque the elbow in proportion to how far their hand is from the shoulder. Either target works, so I don't know which would be more 'correct'.

Kinda like hadaka-jime - done right it's a carotid strangle, but most people in competition do the choke version to get the submission quickly.

Carotid strangles are faster than air chokes as far as I'm aware? I know I can hold my breath for a quite a bit longer than I can take a locked RNC.

[fanatical]

On ude garami. I suppose you're right. But having control of the arm when not keeping it at more than approximately 90 degrees requires nothing but strength imho. You can just bend the elbow over your knee too, but it's not a very mechanical or opportune method.

I just didn't think it was MEANT to attack the elbow and that the shoulder lock was a product of it. But vice versa.

[dakotajudo]

In my experience you torque the elbow in proportion to how far their hand is from the shoulder. Either target works, so I don't know which would be more 'correct'.

The kata version of ude-garami limits how much the shoulder can be rotated - but you can bend the elbow at 90 degrees to its normal plane of movement.

Carotid strangles are faster than air chokes as far as I'm aware? I know I can hold my breath for a quite a bit longer than I can take a locked RNC.

Wasn't talking about rendering an opponent unconscious - people tap to a trachea choke 'cause it hurts like a bitch.

[PointyShinyBurn]

Wasn't talking about rendering an opponent unconscious - people tap to a trachea choke 'cause it hurts like a bitch.

True, true.

This thread is now about brutal, hate-filled hadaka-jime vs. gentle, loving RNC.

[Yrkoon9]

I direct you to the Sakuraba v Renzo match where Sakuraba's Kimura (Ude Garami) dislocated Renzo's elbow.

[GoldenJonas]

Interesting, the Kimura or Ude Garami is probably my favorite submission, or is at least the one I end up using the most from various positions. However, I have never had an opponent say that it was the elbow he was feeling; its always been the shoulder.

Same thing with an omoplata, while the uke's arm positioning is similar to what is commonly called a key lock or hammer lock, with the arm bent through the torre's legs, I have never obtained a submission, or been submitted, due to pressure on the elbow, it has always been the shoulder.

If the primary joint effected by a kimura, ude garami, and an omoplata is the elbow, then I must be doing something wrong technically. Thing that make you go hmmmmmm.....

Edit: Thats true, Renzo's elbow was fucked up by a classic Kimura which Sakuraba rolled into.......even more amazing is Why didn't Renzo tap? it looked nasty.

[dramaboy]

The point of all this is that the "elbow only" rule in judo is pretty fuzzy, and that you can do kimura both ways. And that uma plata is legal in judo in spite of the fact that it is more shoulder lock then elbow lock.

Tomas

Interesting, the Kimura or Ude Garami is probably my favorite submission, or is at least the one I end up using the most from various positions. However, I have never had an opponent say that it was the elbow he was feeling; its always been the shoulder.

Same thing with an omoplata, while the uke's arm positioning is similar to what is commonly called a key lock or hammer lock, with the arm bent through the torre's legs, I have never obtained a submission, or been submitted, due to pressure on the elbow, it has always been the shoulder.

If the primary joint effected by a kimura, ude garami, and an omoplata is the elbow, then I must be doing something wrong technically. Thing that make you go hmmmmmm.....

[dramaboy]

I direct you to the Sakuraba v Renzo match where Sakuraba's Kimura (Ude Garami) dislocated Renzo's elbow.

Yeah, that's what I was gonna bring up, and I know there's a good pic somewhere showing exactly that, I just couldn't find it quickly.

Tomas