Trouble with shoulder throws

[Whispers]

i have trouble with Ippon Seoi Nage. As i perform the throw, i find that i often don't have quite enough momentum to get the opponent over myself and often start to squat and lower myself as they go over, stepping back as they go over me. Is this normal? should i be concerned or am i doing fine?

[Cassius]

i have trouble with Ippon Seoi Nage. As i perform the throw, i find that i often don't have quite enough momentum to get the opponent over myself and often start to squat and lower myself as they go over, stepping back as they go over me. Is this normal? should i be concerned or am i doing fine?

What did your instructor say about it when you asked him? You DID ask him, right?

[Bang!]

Pray tell, how are you doing the throw and where are you training it? If it's in TKD class, then your problems probably start around there.

That being said, it's probably a timing issue. You should wait until there's some forward movement with the arm (either through pushing or through your opponent advancing with the arm extended) in order to capitalize on the movement. If that's not it, it might be a grip thing.

Where are you grabbing on the arm?


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What he said

[Beatdown Richie]

Squatting deeper and stepping back a little is a legit method of getting a stalled seoi-nage to work on the second attempt, but you shouldn't rely on it every time.

Check your position before you bend over: is your hip underneath his center of gravity? Do you have solid contact between your back and his chest? Are you pulling forward strongly on the arm?

Oh, and of course, ask your instructor.

[Bang!]

That's a horrible excuse for infidelity.

[Whispers]

Thanks for all the help. No i'm not learning this at my TKD class. I'm learning it from a friends parent whom happens to live 3.5 hours away (he's free and he's not much farther than the next closest person). I only make it up to see him twice a month at absolute most so we cram alot of stuff in and i work on it like mad with someof my friends who wrestle when i get back here. I know it's not the best way to go about this, but it's better than nothing.

[FictionPimp]

Remember turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn. All my problems with that throw are because I dont keep turning. I stall out a little. When I fail the throw in randori its normally because i turn about 3/4 the way and stop because I think its not going to work.

I'm slowly learning to keep the commitment of the choke/throw even if you think its not working. Thats usually when you have it right and in the case of the choke the guy is about to tap, you just had to hold on but you didn't think you had him, or in the case of a throw you just had to keep turning.

Once you start just complete the whole motion. Its hard to diagnois a problem without watching you throw though. It could be a number of things. I only know my problem is that I hesitate in my turn.

[Te No Kage!]

1) you're probably rarely ever going to pull off this throw in randori -- because everybody knows this throw and hence knows how to defend against it

2) set it up with another throw -- ko soto gari is a good combo throw for the ippon seionage

3) practice, practice, practice

[Cdnronin]

i have trouble with Ippon Seoi Nage. As i perform the throw, i find that i often don't have quite enough momentum to get the opponent over myself and often start to squat and lower myself as they go over, stepping back as they go over me. Is this normal? should i be concerned or am i doing fine?

If you have to squat to adjust your body position while attempting the throw, it should tell you that you are entering for the throw in too upright of a position.

Are you entering from a judo concept of Kuzushi, or are you striking before entering? Off balancing can be acheived by breaking the balance of your uke, or by striking to acheive a momentary lapse of concentration from your opponent. The concept of blow throw blow is the basis of Kawaishi style jiu jitsu.

I find if you are striking to make your entrance, where you hit makes a big difference on the throw. I have seen many folks use a punch to the chest area, problem being you are fairly upright to make the punch(picture a boxer). I prefer to strike up towards the solar plexus, gives extra oomph to the puch, and lowers your hips prior to turning in for the throw. Your hips are already low, rotate and grab hold, continue turning and pulling, there is your throw.

[Yrkoon9]

As a tall guy with weak legs, seoi has always been my weakest throw. IMO this is a throw for shorter people with powerfull legs. That is not to say it cant be done by guys like me, but your entry has to be perfect.

I prefer a 'whipping' type of entry. By that I mean I need my opponent to be coming in a circle and stepping forward. I do that by yanking them around the mat with footsweep attempts. It is possible I will throw in a few Ouchi attempts for some backward pressure that they have to push forward to avoid. Once I get those motions in I find my seoi is much easier because my opponent is moving into and around me.

For example. I might use a weak right side Ouchi attempt. Then attack a couple of times with tsurikomi. Then real quick fake another Ouchi attempt, but change it to seoi.

But I think MOST people's problem with seoi (including my own) is that I do not pull hard enough and I do not get low enough. Its funny when you see yourself on film because it looks like you just jumped in there and leaned over. That shit is NOT gonna work. Now your specific problem sounds like you are trying to stand back up in the middle of the throw or are losing your balance. For that - I would practice the specific part of the throw without a partner, then with a partner trying to isolate the balance aspect of that throw.

[dakotajudo]

A plyometric drill I've used to improve seoi.

Start in a normal stance, leap forward about 2 feet, give or take. As you leap, turn 180 degrees and drop into a full squat (butt on heels). Straighten your legs, without moving your shoulders - that is, your shoulders do not rise as your legs straighten, you bend at the waist.

Stand and repeat.

Sometimes this is done leaping over a partner; sometimes it's trained in steps (leap over with just the turn, no squat, practice squat with no leaping).

Sometimes I have students tuck and roll forward as they straighten their legs.

It doesn't replace uchikomi and nagekomi with a partner, but does help you become more confident and explosive in your movements. I had one student struggling with ippon seoi, did this for a month, pulled off a nice explosive seoi in randori - I wanted to get him to a tournament, just to hear the crowd if he could pull it off. Unfortunately, he started competing MMA shortly after and got away from seoi.

[GoldenJonas]

If you are talking about "momentum" you must be talking about performing the throw during randori, active-resisting randori. If this is where you are having the problem it is very hard to perform ippon seo-nagi without working on kuzushi or at least distracting your opponent with something else. If you do not distract, off balance, and/or do not perform it perfectly with an crisp, effective entry (which I never do) you get posted, reversed, and/or risk getting choked with a rear naked. I have found that Uchi mata during sparring works as a good entry point for many different throws.

If your just having problems getting the opponent around and he/she is working with you, check your base (make sure it is stable but not too far open), make sure your grabbing high enough on the uke's shoulder, make sure squat and draw the uke across your body, and make sure your hip is out far enough support a clean throw.

At least thats how I saw it done while playing Tekken.....ask your instructor.

[Ryno]

People all seem to be hitting the key points, but I'll just redundantly re-inforce what they are saying. You can't always just dive in for this one, he'll see it coming, and counter. When you do get in good on him, pull, pull, pull, and don't let up as you make your entry under the arm.

Glue yourself to him. There should be absolutely no space between the two of you as you come in and make your turn. Keep pulling. Get in super deep, underneath him, and get a good turn. Secure his arm tightly to the top of your shoulder. If you are not deep enough, he may still be thrown, but it'll take a lot more effort. He should be draped over you, tight to your body, and shouldn't be floating around behind you.

As you turn, you should go up onto the balls of your feet, and not be sitting back on your heels. You lean forward as you lift, and he should be so tight to your body that he goes right over. Once again, the arm pull will help in getting him tipping that direction.

Get out some crash pads, and do 50 or 100 of them in a row. Once you're executing well, have your partner try to resist even more. Then figure out a good fake that'll set it up a bit better.

[babo78]

1) you're probably rarely ever going to pull off this throw in randori -- because everybody knows this throw and hence knows how to defend against it

2) set it up with another throw -- ko soto gari is a good combo throw for the ippon seionage

As a single technique in randori what you said in #1 is probably on the money. But as part of combination like you said in #2, imo seoi is very strong throw (not counting height factor).

Whispers, I don't know how you are training for seoi or your height but don't ever do drop knee seoi unless you have some nice padding. Even if you wear knee pads/brace, try to avoid it. Imo, if forms bad habit at start and damages your knee, later when your more proficient at throw, drop knee seoi imo comes very easy.

As a tall guy with weak legs, seoi has always been my weakest throw. IMO this is a throw for shorter people with powerfull legs. That is not to say it cant be done by guys like me, but your entry has to be perfect.

Yeah, I totally agree. Imo height definitly affects which technique comes more natural and more effective for a person.

Whispers, how tall are you and the person you are practicing it on ?

[BackFistMonkey]

.....At least thats how I saw it done while playing Tekken.....ask your instructor.

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