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Self-defence in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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  • dakotajudo
    replied
    Originally posted by Osiris
    What change is this? The guy is sleeping. You can't pull a weapon like that. When you have a fully sunk RNC with the hooks in, its game over. The only question is how many seconds they have left.
    How many resisting opponents have you choked unconscious using this technique?

    Myself, I've gotten a few submissions, but no knockouts.

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  • Teh El Macho
    replied
    Hmmm, good point Osiris.

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  • Teh El Macho
    replied
    Originally posted by Osiris
    The choke in the picture is optimal for self defense against one person. Running away really quickly is optimal against multiple opponents. I like how when confronted by multiple opponents, people want to resort to techniques that would get them raped by just one.
    No Osiris, dude, you are getting my words wrong. I never advocated one over the other. I'm just don't see how those submission grappling examples as optimal for self-defense. In a self-defense situation, you must never, ever, ever assume you are only defending against one opponent. I have one experience that is burned in my memories: last year before coming to the US, 1998. God awful club in Honduras, two guys were fighting, sort of in a clinch. Another guy came saying, and I QUOTE "hey guys, take it easy, please, the cops are going to come and close the place."

    Lo and behold in that peacemaking overture, the third guy pulled a gillette razor and deep cut one of the guys on the back... he happened to be the other guy's buddy. One of my best friends in Florida, an ex-cop from NY also witnessed the same shit in NY a few years ago. Remember the "malicia" concept that is sometimes mentioned in capoeira? Kinda like that. You may be defending yourself against one person at the beginning, but you better believe that there may be another one coming at you. You better think like that, and you better be ready. Just because you see one, that doesn't mean he is the only one. If you go to the ground, you better be able to get up fast, and that choke won't let you do that.

    BJJ is the best in the world when it comes to submission grappling, but no way on earth that I will ever see a lot of things in it (in their pure form) as applicable to self-defense. Honest to God, I just don't see how. Actually the more I think about it as I'm writing this, the less that I see all forms of submission grappling, anything on the ground, as an ideal component of a self-defense theory. Well, maybe for a woman in a rape-case situation (where usually, it will be only one attacker.)

    If the ground happens, it happens. Unless one can ascertain 100% that there will only be one opponent in that confrontation (or if your opponent is just too fucking huge), one better keep it away from the ground as much as possible... I think.

    Oh well, I'm out... there is a UFC rerun on spike that I want to watch :adora:

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  • Aesopian
    replied
    Now I remember why I hate street vs sport arguments.

    As I said, I'd look into ISR and STAB by SBG if I was interested in self defense.

    I'm not.

    Other than that, buy a gun.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shuma-Gorath
    replied
    Originally posted by Osiris
    I like how when confronted by multiple opponents, people want to resort to techniques that would get them raped by just one.
    This doesn't necessarily pertain to multiple opponents. Since you are not in a controlled setting any change in the environment could suddenly render that choke disadvantageous.

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  • Teh El Macho
    replied
    Originally posted by Aesopian
    So doing an americana wrong, a RNC wrong and an ankle lock wrong is better for self defense?
    Ay Dios Mio Carajo!!! No! No! No! LOL. I swear that you guys have a reading problem :eatbabies

    You are focusing on the traditional ju-jutsu techniques as if that was the point I was trying to make. I take your word for granted that the jjj techniques are awful. I don't have the knowledge to tell. But in all honesty, can anyone tell me with a straight face that the submission grappling choke, for example, as illustrated in that article, is an optimal choke for a self-defense situation????

    Me no think so. Me be BJJ n00b, but me have seen quite a few street fights, stabings and punching buddies coming out of nowhere. Can you do the "right RNC" in a crowded club against a punk throwing haymakers? Hell no. In a desolated street where a mugger corners you without giving you no other chance but to fight him? Hell no. If the fight happens to end in you doing an RNC to your opponent as you do on the mat, oh well, you do what you do best, but that doesn't mean that's the best thing to do. You do your best with the only things you know. You act, think, and react as you train and as you know, no more than that.

    You guys have already acknowledge that the self-defense stuff you have seen in your BJJ classes are a joke. And one important reason is that you can't dissengage quickly. No matter how you cut it, you can't haul ass quickly from that possition. Can anyone tell me that this assertion I'm just making right now is wrong??????

    I'm not saying to use the alternative jjj techniques as illustrated in the article, and please don't tell me that the submission grappling alternatives are "right" . Right on the mat where your only one opponent is going to let go as soon as you tap perhaps. :XXeyeslam

    The traditional jj alternatives demonstrated in the article may be wrong, but the reason why they are different may be right (how to let go and and haul ass quickly).

    So the question for submission grapplers today is how to take what they do best in the mat today, and decide what to keep, what to discard and what to modify so that they become applicable from a self-defense point of view, not from the safety of a mat where the only opponent you will ever have to worry will let go as soon as you tap.

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  • Shuma-Gorath
    replied
    Originally posted by Aesopian
    So doing an americana wrong, a RNC wrong and an ankle lock wrong is better for self defense?
    I've seen that article before. The RNC version might work and I would probably use it over being underneath with hooks, but not over having my opponent face-down. I agree the other two techniques are horrible since in #1 he is mounted and in #3 you can just let go and roll away. Please don't lump what I am saying in with that JJJ apology piece.

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  • Aesopian
    replied
    So doing an americana wrong, a RNC wrong and an ankle lock wrong is better for self defense?

    Leave a comment:


  • Teh El Macho
    replied
    Well, as it was mentioned in my post, the point in that article relevant to this thread is the topic of disengagement, the ability to disengage, the ability to keep disengagement in mind at all times during a self-defense situation. The point of including that article was not about the modern applications of samurai armor in today's streetfights. You guys and your sacred cows are too funny :biggrin:

    I find it ironic that it has to be the one article of traditional ju-jutsu that ends up mentioning one crucial fact of self-defense, dissengagement aka intelligent quick-haul-ass, which seems to be sorely missing in most discussions of more effective martial arts that I've seen so far... go figures. Someday, somebody is going to get a new anal cavity ripped just below the liver when he tries to pull his sacred-cow-fu on a street situation. :tellme: :icon_eek: :new_Eyecr

    ciao, ciao.

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  • Hedgehogey
    replied


    It's like someone combined the worst aspects of catch wrestling and LARP into one horrible, shame inducing, "calflock".

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  • Aesopian
    replied
    This thread is skirting closer and closer to the edge of the LAVA AND BROKEN GLASS pit.

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  • Aesopian
    replied
    The comparison of similar techniques from Submission Wrestling vs Japanese Jujitsu should just read "Right Way vs Wrong Way". It's cute and all to show how techniques are different when you pretend you're a samurai, but any supposed benefit of having "disengagement" in mind seems to be outweighed by how the techniques are faulty because they are not trained corrently.

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  • Teh El Macho
    replied
    I wanted to make reference to the following article at grapplearts.com regarding the differences between Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and classical ju-jutsu techniques (takenouchi-ryu to be exact... just quoting the article :read: ). BTW, I think I saw tihs article quoted here, but I can't find it with the search func... that crap doesn't work...

    http://www.grapplearts.com/Submissio...s-ju-jutsu.htm

    Please bear in mind that the intention of the article was not to indicate which is more effective in general, much less in self-defence in particular. However, the article raises a good point (or at least a good point based on my interpretation of things). BTW, highlighted lines are done by me to stress the points I found relevant:
    The goal of Submission Grappling is to submit your opponent or defeat him on points. The goal of classical Ju-jutsu was to win on the battlefield, usually in the presence of weapons and multiple attackersrear mountvery powerful way to control an opponent. In this position an opponent is very vulnerable to a number of submissions and has extremely limited options to escape and counter-attack. This position is not favored in classical Ju-jutsu, however, because disengaging from an opponent could be difficult to do quickly. The knee in the spine control, although less secure, could be abandoned faster if a second attacker suddenly engaged the samurai.
    Putting aside the fact that wearing a samurai armor is not a pre-requisite to defend yourself on the street (except on Halloween if you are a geek), there is the issue of dissengaging ASAP. Dissengaging is part of knowing when to haul ass away from a dangerous scenario.

    Please refer to the illustrations of classical ju-jutsu and BJJ chokes in the mentioned URL.

    Last, but not least, I like the summary of this article:
    The study of these different approaches to combative grappling can be a fascinating and rewarding undertaking. The classical approach emphasizes issues related to culture, history, and the perils of total combat. Modern Submission Grappling, on the other hand, offers a highly efficient training method to develop skills and proficiency in the techniques of combative grappling. It is the opinion of the authors that practitioners of both arts can benefit by being exposed to the other art and approach.
    Regardless of which art is more efficient (or inefficient, choose your own sacred cows), this is something that should be read and internalize by those wishing to know what the hell should be (or should not be) done in a self-defense scenario.

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  • Shuma-Gorath
    replied
    Again I must stress that we frequently remove the compliant element of this training once someone has tried it a few times. For instance, when defending from your back against a standing opponent the attacker will be told to throw full-force slaps to the head while the defender must keep them away. The same goes for the standing defence against a 1-2 combination where you take the overhooks and throw. If you miss you get hit.

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  • Aesopian
    replied
    I think the traditional BJJ self defense curriculum (bearhug escapes, knife disarms, etc.) is unrealistic and mostly useless. I imagine they are only kept as part of "tradition," like how the R side of the family (Rorion, Royce, Royler) claims to have the "Real Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" because they still teach the fuddy-duddy syllabus Helio passed down.

    Just look at the BJJ self defense curriculum against (the sadly cliched) Aliveness, and you'll see that it doesn't fit the bill. I would get into SBG's ISR and STAB programs if self defense were my main concern, but for now I'm happy to be a faggot sportfighter.

    I was reading a BJJ forum where someone asked Micheal Jen, a BJJ black belt, why he said "Personally, my adult blue belt requirements are very different from that which you listed. I don't like BJJ self-defense techniques. I think it is bunch of garbage, so I don't require that my student learn it."

    Here are his replies, since I found them very interesting:
    Keep in mind that I'm talking about the self-defense techniques, not sport BJJ or NHB. BJJ people laugh at the stuff that Japanese Jiu-jitsu and aikido do, yet BJJ self-defense is the exact same stuff. BJJ sport or NHB techniques are learned and then practiced with full resistance when we roll or spar. BJJ self-defense techniques are never practiced like that. It is done like kata. If it was done with full sparring, it would be clear that it doesn't work- just like the Japanese jiu-jitsu.

    By the way, before getting into BJJ, I almost got a black belt in a style of Japanese jiu-jitsu. I can tell you that once I felt full resistance, that stuff didn't work.

    What is even worse is the BJJ weapons defense. If you want to learn to groundfight or defend against things on the ground, learn BJJ. BJJ is not weapon art nor is it a weapons defense art. If you tried the BJJ knife defenses in reality, you're going to get killed.

    What is even worse is the BJJ weapons
    Next he was asked "Do you think because of your BJJ training that you are better prepared for a fight, not self defense, but an actual fight?", and his reply:
    I would say that I am better off than the average person who does not know anything, however, I wouldn't say that I am a proficient streetfighter.

    I believe a person is prepared for what they train for. I train sport BJJ. I do not train NHB, self-defense, streetfight, etc... I do not fool myself and equate sport BJJ with a streetfight.

    There are too many unpredictable factors in a real fight. A real fight is not two guy in Speedos facing off in a ring.
    And some more answers to questions I'm not going to bother posting since you can guess what they were well enough:
    upa,

    I can't really comment to much on arts like Krav Maga as I have not studied that art. I'm sure there are those who have used their martial arts in a streetfight, but there is no single art that prepares you for all situations.

    As far as comparing arts, you need to look at the training methods. Obviously an art that has sparring with full resistance is going to be more productive that those who are just doing kata. However, when it comes to self-defense or a streetfight, environmental training is also very important. In BJJ, we grapple on mats. Have you ever tried it on pavement? On dirt with rocks? There's a lot more to preparing for a streetfight than sparring in the gym.

    No I have not test my BJJ in a streetfight. I hope I never have to. As a business owner that lives in CA, I would never want to risk the hassle of getting sued. People in CA are lawsuit happy. Plus, people no longer fight fair. My wife cousin won a fight, but the guy later came back and shot my wife cousin in the chest.

    ---------------------

    MikeG,

    Every art has it's strength and weakness. Is there one art that will prepare you for all situations? No. To be effective in self-defense, you will have to be familiar with all ranges of combat which means you will have to learn and mix different arts. Then you will need to ad environmental training so you can learn what techniques work and don't work in certain areas. Then there is the psychological training. It's one thing to know you are going to spar or train, it is another thing to get jumped when you least expect it.

    ---------------------------

    Breeze,

    There is no one single definition for a "real fight". A real fight could involve a knife. If you used BJJ against a knife, you will die. A real fight could happen in a bathroom or in your car where you have no room to go to the ground. A real fight could happen with more than one attacker. A real fight is not just one person facing off against another person.
    And finally:
    If you truly want to be as prepared as possible when it comes to self-defense....

    1. Your main focus when training will have to be self-defense. Take for example an NHB fighter. If a person wants to be a good NHB fighter, he will have to focus on NHB. A person cannot be a good NHB fighter if they focus on sport BJJ 90% of the time and NHB 10% of the time. Similarly, if you want to get good at self-defense, you need to make sure that is your focus. You must also accept the fact that you will no excel in sport as much as those who only focus on sport.

    2. You will need to be well rounded. You will have to learn striking, standing grappling, ground grappling, and weapons. There is not one single art that effectively addresses all the arts, so you will have to study different arts.

    3. As you study different arts, understand the different between sport and streetfighting. For example, boxing is an excellent sport to teach you how to punch. However, in the sport of boxing, hands are wrapped and covered by gloves. In the street, you do no have handwraps and gloves. You will need to learn how to adapt your techniques.

    4. You will need to learn how to fight dirty and defend against someone who is fighting dirty.

    5. Sparring and lots of it. If you look at effective arts like judo, BJJ, boxing, kali ilustrisimo, muay thai, sparring is a big art of the training. None of those arts spend a majority of the time doing kata or the like.

    6. Scenario training. Spar in different environments/areas/number of opponent and begin to understand what does and does not work in certain environments/areas. Also, it is great to spar in a wide open area with lots of room, but what happened when there are objects on the floor and all around. For example, I can tell you that I have done weapons sparring and not paid attention to things on the floor and fell flat on my ass.

    7. Psychological training. It is one thing to be ready to spar and it is another thing to get jumped when you are totally off guard.

    8. Pain tolerance and killer instinct. Some people crumple under the slightest amount of pain. A person must learn to fight and withstand pain.

    9. Tactics. Sport tactics are completely different than street tactics. In order to save your life, you may have to sucker punch someone or use something in the environment as a weapon or tactic. Or you may talk about certain things to throw off your assailant's mental focus.

    10. When to fight and when not to fight/legal ramifications. Learning effective self-defense is also learn when to walk away. Self-defense doesn't mean to beat the ass of everyone who bothers you. In addition, understand what qualifies as self-defense and what qualifies as assualt.

    Almost forgot this golden oldie:
    The BJJ headlocks escapes are good, but most of the unarmed stuff is nothing but traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu that I doesn't think works very well. The weapon techniques are terrible. If you want to learn how to handle weapons, learn it from a weapons art.

    A few people can say that they have made the BJJ self-defense stuff work in action. Similarly, I bet I can find some people who say they have used their Tae Kwon Do or Kung Fu in action. It still doesn't change my opinion on BJJ self-defense, TKD or Kung Fu.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 1/02/2006 5:51pm, . Reason: Formatting.

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