Self-defence in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

[Shuma-Gorath]

The purpose of this thread is to ask what kind of self-defence training you do at your Brazilian Jiu-jitsu school, specifically how it is different from training for the sportive aspect of the art. Jiu-jitsu practitioners routinely (and rightfully) proclaim that their art is the best for self-defence in an unarmed encounter, but what do youBrazilian Jiu-Jitsu Self-DefenceBrazilian Jiu-Jitsu Self-Defenceincluding

[Shuma-Gorath]

Bumping for people who read the New Posts list.

[UpaLumpa]

Frankly I don't give two craps about self-defense. I don't get in fights and generally avoid situations that would put myself at risk for other types of attacks. I do this stuff because it is fun and have a hard time thinking of rational arguments to the contrary for most americans.

Stand up grappling to ground is probably around 20-80, though that ratio changes with upcoming tournaments.
Generally all ground technique is introduced with some minimal amount of discussion of its relevance or modification for sd or vt.

Striking and vt techniques are generally covered in warmups or in seperate classes.

[UpaLumpa]

Can you expand on a description of these sets in another thread?

[Shuma-Gorath]

I'll certainly see what I can come up with. I may have written down a few sequences already.

[UpaLumpa]

In other words we're deficient in striking and throwing.

[Shuma-Gorath]

This thread isn't getting the level of response I thought it would, so here's another one of the progressive sequences.

Defence against side headlock
-Opponent attempts to headlock you from side.
--Posture up and bring your near hand up to block the headbutt attempt and prevent your opponent from closing his hands
--Pull the encircling arm out away from your far shoulder at the wrist, then duck under to bring it up the attacker's back. The hand blocking the head moves up under the opponent's far armpit and cups the shoulder so they can't spin out.

--Opponent breaks your posture and closes his hands, then punches your head.
---Block punches to your head at the bicep with your far hand. As the attacker brings their arm back to punch, the near arm goes behind their back as you push their elbow out with your far hand to catch it with your near hand. His arm is now trapped. Duck behind hand trap his far arm as above.

--Opponent breaks your posture, locks his hands and starts to drag you away. Danger of healdlock throws.
---Base and do a rear trip takedown, then perform standard headlock escape on the ground and finish appropriately (usually armbar).


Does everyone see what I'm getting at? Is this something you would practice on a regular basis?

[BSDaemon]

No it isn't something I would practice on a regular basis. Time spent doing the compliant drill patterns would be better spent doing live training.

[Shuma-Gorath]

No it isn't something I would practice on a regular basis. Time spent doing the compliant drill patterns would be better spent doing live training.

The instructor often has the attacker add resistance relevant to the attack to make sure the defender had the technique down. This is not "dead" training.

How often do you do anything live in your BJJ class that involves strikes and common attacks? This is the distinction I'm trying to make.

To elaborate: If you were headlocked while rolling in class you would probably go straight to the trip takedown, take the back, etc. But this is a solution more suited to the sport aspect of BJJ and not necessarily the first thing you want to do in an uncontrolled setting.

[Torakaka]

Frankly I don't give two craps about self-defense. I don't get in fights and generally avoid situations that would put myself at risk for other types of attacks. I do this stuff because it is fun and have a hard time thinking of rational arguments to the contrary for most americans.

I'm in this guys boat 100%

edit: in fact, I often get a little annoyed when they teach the "self defense" techniques in my muay thai class because usually they're something you can't safely spar with or aren't allowed to use in competition, which is the whole point of why I do martial arts. Also, the addition of "Self defense" to the curriculum seems to mainly be a marketing gimmick to help attract all the peopl interested in doing martial arts for self defense.

[Shuma-Gorath]

I'm in this guys boat 100%

edit: in fact, I often get a little annoyed when they teach the "self defense" techniques in my muay thai class because usually they're something you can't safely spar with or aren't allowed to use in competition, which is the whole point of why I do martial arts. Also, the addition of "Self defense" to the curriculum seems to mainly be a marketing gimmick to help attract all the peopl interested in doing martial arts for self defense.

Our school actually ran a women's self-defence program at one point, and when attendance dropped off my head instructor just told the remaining girls to buy gis and join the BJJ class.

I understand your complaint with that aspect of your Muay Thai curriculum, but MT has been a sport art for a long time. BJJ is, in my understanding and based on what I've read from Helio, supposed to be a self-defence art first and a sport art second. Given how huge the sport aspect is I'm wondering why self-defence is neglected.

Also, none of the techniques we use are "too deadly". They'd all be legal in a vale tudo match (i.e. no stupid eye pokes, fishhooks, etc) save for the standard fingerlock.

[Shuma-Gorath]

I wouldn't change too much from basic MMA technique in a street fight. Ground and pound is tried and true on the street. No need to get all stupid.

I agree with you, but there are details that make ground positions more appropriate to uncontrolled settings. For instance, if I am doing an arm triangle on someone I typically go up on one knee and post my other leg out similar to knee-on-chest but with the knee in the opponent's back. This way if I see other dangers I can disengage, soccer kick the guy and run. Were I in the sprawled-out position with one leg forward and one back it would take me longer to get up and block certain angles of view.

In the above example it also helps prevent my opponent from rolling. I used it to win a match at my last tournament, in fact.

[Hedgehogey]

To elaborate: If you were headlocked while rolling in class you would probably go straight to the trip takedown, take the back, etc. But this is a solution more suited to the sport aspect of BJJ and not necessarily the first thing you want to do in an uncontrolled setting.

Why the fuck not?

[Teh El Macho]

Frankly I don't give two craps about self-defense. I don't get in fights and generally avoid situations that would put myself at risk for other types of attacks. I do this stuff because it is fun and have a hard time thinking of rational arguments to the contrary for most americans.

I'm in this guys boat 100%

edit: in fact, I often get a little annoyed when they teach the "self defense" techniques in my muay thai class because usually they're something you can't safely spar with or aren't allowed to use in competition, which is the whole point of why I do martial arts. Also, the addition of "Self defense" to the curriculum seems to mainly be a marketing gimmick to help attract all the peopl interested in doing martial arts for self defense.

Me, too. I agree with UpaLumpa. Training on MA for the sole purpose of 'self-defense' is a very dangerous thing to do. It shows a mentality with a predisposition to fight.

The best self-defense technique is to follow your gut insticts. I remember my Kempo instructor of old telling me that regardless of one's training, if you have a feeling, however small, that some guy can kick the shit out of you, then run like hell if you can, cuz he probably can and will.

I see some guys at my BJJ class, as I've seen other guys at my prev. Judo classes, and I see they have a bull's eye painted in their foreheads. Last month, my BJJ instructor was explaining to us how to deal with a guy that 1) doesn't know ground-fighting, and 2) we end up in the ground. Standard stuff, move to mount him, use his uneducated attempt to get up to let him roll under you and get his back, RNC, and ta-da.

Pretty nice, BUT, my instructor wasn't advocating to take it to the ground or anything else for that matter. He was just explaining what to do in such a case. Anyways, to make the story short, some of the guys at the BJJ class (who seem cocky by nature) were talking like "oh man, this is the shit. I'm gonna use at the club when I get into a fight." God have mercy on their souls.

I wouldn't change too much from basic MMA technique in a street fight. Ground and pound is tried and true on the street. No need to get all stupid.

Yep... so long as one is able to get up, disengage and run like hell in a split second if necessary... I think.

[Teh El Macho]

To elaborate: If you were headlocked while rolling in class you would probably go straight to the trip takedown, take the back, etc. But this is a solution more suited to the sport aspect of BJJ and not necessarily the first thing you want to do in an uncontrolled setting

Why the fuck not?

Hmmm, a hard floor is kinda unforgiving during a takedown, no matter how it gets executed :XXjester: Put chairs, or screw the chairs, think pavement with that unforgiving, flesh scrapping surface... I guess the operative word is "to go straight"

you would probably go straight to the trip takedown

On a self-defense scenario, you better think twice to go to a takedown. Just landing on your elbow on a pavement can shatter it, and then you are screwed.

In a self-defense scenario, you would go to the takedown as the last resort, when there is no other option (.ie. you can't get out of the headlock, or the guy is just too huge/strong). On the mat, however, the takedown will be the first thing in your to-do list as you roll. On the mat, you go to the ground. The ground is your predilected weapon, your first choice. On a self-defense situation, the ground is the last option ALWAYS.