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Okay experts explain to me why we don't see this at high level competition

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    #16
    Originally posted by jnp View Post
    The short answer to your initial question in the OP is this, the more fundamentals a technique has, the more likely it will work against all levels of practitioners. The more the “surprise factor” plays a part in the technique, the less likely it is to do so.

    Roger Gracie cleaned house on the international competition circuit using chokes after attaining mount. An example of pure fundamentals working at the highest levels.

    On a personal level, when Zapruder (RIP) and I were purple and brown belts, he was always coming up with crazy entries to various submissions. I’m big on the fundamentals. He once told me he knew if one of his entries worked on me consistently, he could use it against higher belts.
    Many black belts, including competitive black belts, make consistent bad strategic choices, and are remarkably flawed in their execution of many of the basic positions and opportunities.

    They take sloppy risks with low pay off out of habit and without even noticing it.

    By playing contrary models, that exploit that or those flaws in execution, one can often pick up submissions, or annoyances, or positional transitions, nearly for free.

    On the other hand, the contrary model players get eaten alive when confronted with a player that does not make the sloppy and sometimes surprisingly popular flaws necessary to make the contrary models useful.

    Or against a player that is well trained in the counter offense to the contrary model.

    We see this often when athletes from one ruleset play against athletes from other rulesets.

    They may bring in contrary models, such as a high level Judo player who is sly enough to hit a careless single leg attack against a folkstyle or freestyle wrestler,

    knowing that the freestyle wrestler will almost always hit one of a few high percentage wrestling counters,

    many of which gift wrap a superior entry into a dominant upper body clinch for the Judo man that is then perfect for no gi Judo throwing techniques.

    This is inviting the alligator to bite off their own limbs with their own usually high percentage responses within the models they are accustomed to.

    In this type of case, the contrary model player invites the highly skilled player in fundamentals to set themselves up with their own fundamentals, and their confidence in that model.

    And in some cases, the contrary player will completely turn the underlying assumptions of the model with those fundamentals on their ear to do so.
    Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 1/01/2020 2:53pm, .

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      #17
      Originally posted by Krampus View Post
      Many black belts, including competitive black belts, make consistent bad strategic choices, and are remarkably flawed in their execution of many of the basic positions and opportunities.

      They take sloppy risks with low pay off out of habit and without even noticing it.

      By playing contrary models, that exploit that or those flaws in execution, one can often pick up submissions, or annoyances, or positional transitions, nearly for free.

      On the other hand, the contrary model players get eaten alive when confronted with a player that does not make the sloppy and sometimes surprisingly popular flaws necessary to make the contrary models useful.

      Or against a player that is well trained in the counter offense to the contrary model.

      We see this often when athletes from one ruleset play against athletes from other rulesets.

      They may bring in contrary models, such as a high level Judo player who is sly enough to hit a careless single leg attack against a folkstyle or freestyle wrestler,

      knowing that the freestyle wrestler will almost always hit one of a few high percentage wrestling counters,

      many of which gift wrap a superior entry into a dominant upper body clinch for the Judo man that is then perfect for no gi Judo throwing techniques.

      This is inviting the alligator to bite off their own limbs with their own usually high percentage responses within the models they are accustomed to.

      In this type of case, the contrary model player invites the highly skilled player in fundamentals to set themselves up with their own fundamentals, and their confidence in that model.

      And in some cases, the contrary player will completely turn the underlying assumptions of the model with those fundamentals on their ear to do so.
      To further explain, it is not just a question of "fundamentals".

      Every model has its own foundational assumptions, and own set of "fundamentals".

      Model selection and model transition recognition are also key, in addition to "fundamentals" of any model, including the more popular ones.
      Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 1/01/2020 2:53pm, .

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Krampus View Post
        Many black belts, including competitive black belts, make consistent bad strategic choices, and are remarkably flawed in their execution of many of the basic positions and opportunities.

        They take sloppy risks with low pay off out of habit and without even noticing it.

        By playing contrary models, that exploit that or those flaws in execution, one can often pick up submissions, or annoyances, or positional transitions, nearly for free.

        On the other hand, the contrary model players get eaten alive when confronted with a player that does not make the sloppy and sometimes surprisingly popular flaws necessary to make the contrary models useful.

        Or against a player that is well trained in the counter offense to the contrary model.

        We see this often when athletes from one ruleset play against athletes from other rulesets.

        They may bring in contrary models, such as a high level Judo player who is sly enough to hit a careless single leg attack against a folkstyle or freestyle wrestler,

        knowing that the freestyle wrestler will almost always hit one of a few high percentage wrestling counters,

        many of which gift wrap an superior entry into a dominant upper body clinch for the Judo man that is then perfect for no gi Judo throwing techniques.

        This is inviting the alligator to bite off their own limbs with their own usually high percentage responses within the models they are accustomed to.

        In this type of case, the contrary model player invites the highly skilled player in fundamentals to set themselves up with their own fundamentals, and their confidence in that model.

        And in some cases, the contrary player will completely turn the underlying assumptions of the model with those fundamentals on their ear to do so.
        Great post

        As ghost likes to say there are levels to this shit.
        Falling for Judo since 1980

        "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

        "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

        "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by BKR View Post
          Great post

          As ghost likes to say there are levels to this shit.
          It gets really complicated even within one rule set.

          That was why Travis Stevens kept blowing my mind at the Canadian training camp that I went to a few years ago.

          He took up BJJ and did something similar to what you were describing.
          Falling for Judo since 1980

          "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

          "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

          "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by BKR View Post
            It gets really complicated even within one rule set.

            That was why Travis Stevens kept blowing my mind at the Canadian training camp that I went to a few years ago.

            He took up BJJ and did something similar to what you were describing.
            Another interesting cluster where we observe this phenomenon is with high level players that have built games to work around a serious, permanent injury, or physical disability.

            In BJJ, Gordo popularized bottom half guard sweeps because he completely blew out his knee, and could no longer perform many conventional guards during a prolonged recovery.

            To his and everyone's else's surprise, he managed to turn people over a lot while on the bottom half guard with a few simple moves.

            Then, in wrestling, we see the case of Anthony Robles, born without a leg, but blessed with a lower weight class with significant upper body strength advantage compared to the other people in the weight class, and a perfected low shot single and tilt game.

            The Great Koga blows out his shoulder and starts hitting a one armed Seoi that no one saw coming and before he proved it could be high percentage for him against high level players, most people in a vacuum would have said would be low percentage in high level Judo tournaments.

            We were born to adapt, to redefine the rules of our environment, or to die.
            Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 1/01/2020 3:03pm, .

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Krampus View Post
              Another interesting cluster where we observe this phenomenon is with high level players that have built games to work around a serious, permanent injury, or physical disability.

              In BJJ, Gordo popularized bottom half guard sweeps because he completely blew out his knee, and could no longer perform many conventional guards during a prolonged recovery.

              To his and everyone's else's surprise, he managed to turn people over a lot while on the bottom half guard with a few simple moves.

              Then, in wrestling, we see the case of Anthony Robles, born without a leg, but blessed with a lower weight class with significant upper body strength advantage compared to the other people in the weight class, and a perfected low shot single and tilt game.

              The Great Koga blows out his shoulder and starts hitting a one armed Seoi that no one saw coming and before he proved it could be high percentage for him against high level players, most people in a vacuum would have said would be low percentage in high level Judo tournaments.

              We were born to adapt, to redefine the rules of our environment, or to die.
              Yes...
              Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki blew out his elbow...
              Falling for Judo since 1980

              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Krampus View Post
                Many black belts, including competitive black belts, make consistent bad strategic choices, and are remarkably flawed in their execution of many of the basic positions and opportunities.

                They take sloppy risks with low pay off out of habit and without even noticing it.

                By playing contrary models, that exploit that or those flaws in execution, one can often pick up submissions, or annoyances, or positional transitions, nearly for free.

                On the other hand, the contrary model players get eaten alive when confronted with a player that does not make the sloppy and sometimes surprisingly popular flaws necessary to make the contrary models useful.

                Or against a player that is well trained in the counter offense to the contrary model.

                We see this often when athletes from one ruleset play against athletes from other rulesets.

                They may bring in contrary models, such as a high level Judo player who is sly enough to hit a careless single leg attack against a folkstyle or freestyle wrestler,

                knowing that the freestyle wrestler will almost always hit one of a few high percentage wrestling counters,

                many of which gift wrap a superior entry into a dominant upper body clinch for the Judo man that is then perfect for no gi Judo throwing techniques.

                This is inviting the alligator to bite off their own limbs with their own usually high percentage responses within the models they are accustomed to.

                In this type of case, the contrary model player invites the highly skilled player in fundamentals to set themselves up with their own fundamentals, and their confidence in that model.

                And in some cases, the contrary player will completely turn the underlying assumptions of the model with those fundamentals on their ear to do so.
                Alright though, I know you have an internet presence and that your on a lot of the same BJJ blogs I am on and you see a lot of the same videos I see.
                I know your a very experienced and are fairly open minded and aren't likely to just Poo poo something.
                and I know I am not, I want to be clear I know, I know, I know, I am on the top of Mt Stupid, and I know even worrying about this sort of stuff other than just focusing in on getting better is mental masturbation.

                But I can't help but think their has to be videos you see where you go, yep that guy is a black belt he is skilled but that guy, that guy only has white and blue belts in his academy, and that technique he is teaching hasn't been properly vetted.
                Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                Comment


                  #23
                  Also btw I want to be clear, I don't think I know any better than any of the black belts that post videos, I am just exploring things.
                  Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                  –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                    Alright though, I know you have an internet presence and that your on a lot of the same BJJ blogs I am on and you see a lot of the same videos I see.
                    I know your a very experienced and are fairly open minded and aren't likely to just Poo poo something.
                    and I know I am not, I want to be clear I know, I know, I know, I am on the top of Mt Stupid, and I know even worrying about this sort of stuff other than just focusing in on getting better is mental masturbation.

                    But I can't help but think their has to be videos you see where you go, yep that guy is a black belt he is skilled but that guy, that guy only has white and blue belts in his academy, and that technique he is teaching hasn't been properly vetted.
                    Again, it comes down to how skilled people are within their models.

                    And then you have to assess how well those models will play in environments based on what competing models tend to be present there, and are permissible to be there.

                    To paraphrase Helio Gracie, you only need one Osvaldo Fadda to know that Jiu-Jitsu is not the sole province of the Gracies.

                    Fadda took a technique that the Gracie schools had been calling favela junk and defeated the Gracie's in tournament.

                    The truth is, you can make someone a world champion off a take down, or a razor arm bar, or, or, or...

                    And to answer your question, I love to watch Judo Olympic Champions, Wrestling Champions, Jiu-Jitsu World Champions, Submission grappling champions, and MMA champions break down their games.

                    I also learn things everyday from watching coaches who have coaches basics to kids for decades.

                    I learn things from watching tournament or MMA highlights.

                    I learn a shit ton from watching biomechanical studies from track and field, and other sports, and thinking about how they relate to my sports / activities.

                    Back to JNP's comment about fundamentals, I never, never ever get tired of watching, or drilling the simplest basics.

                    And, decades later, I am still trying to figure out how the basics really work, and what is the best way to do them.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Krampus View Post
                      Again, it comes down to how skilled people are within their models.

                      And then you have to assess how well those models will play in environments based on what competing models tend to be present there, and are permissible to be there.

                      To paraphrase Helio Gracie, you only need one Osvaldo Fadda to know that Jiu-Jitsu is not the sole province of the Gracies.

                      Fadda took a technique that the Gracie schools had been calling favela junk and defeated the Gracie's in tournament.

                      The truth is, you can make someone a world champion off a take down, or a razor arm bar, or, or, or...

                      And to answer your question, I love to watch Judo Olympic Champions, Wrestling Champions, Jiu-Jitsu World Champions, Submission grappling champions, and MMA champions break down their games.

                      I also learn things everyday from watching coaches who have coaches basics to kids for decades.

                      I learn things from watching tournament or MMA highlights.

                      Back to JNP's comment about fundamentals, I never, never ever get tired of watching, or drilling the simplest basics.

                      And, decades later, I am still trying to figure out how the basics really work, and what is the best way to do them.
                      I would often get to Judo practice early and my young students would show up to find me doing the most basic of solo exercises.
                      Falling for Judo since 1980

                      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Thank you for humoring me with a response, I greatly appreciate it.
                        I hope you don't mind me comparing what you have said to others
                        Originally posted by Krampus View Post
                        Again, it comes down to how skilled people are within their models.
                        If I am following you right
                        I have certainly have heard of this concept, Ryan Hall, Danaher, and Lister have all basically expressed this idea.
                        Especially with regards to leg locks, basically force people into a game where your skilled and they are not.
                        In fact I would say that is what BJJ is about right, take the fight to the ground and be the shark


                        Originally posted by Krampus View Post
                        Back to JNP's comment about fundamentals, I never, never ever get tired of watching, or drilling the simplest basics.

                        And, decades later, I am still trying to figure out how the basics really work, and what is the best way to do them.
                        Indeed the fundamentals seem to be a very key place to focus for sure.
                        One only really need to look at Kron Gracies back to basics approach run.

                        So getting back to videos I am going to assume unless you have a big name, putting out a fundamentals video isn't going to get a lot of clicks.
                        But if you put out a "They won't see this coming choke" one is likely to.
                        Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                        –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                          Thank you for humoring me with a response, I greatly appreciate it.
                          I hope you don't mind me comparing what you have said to others
                          Of course not.

                          I tell all my university and grapple-fu students, "don't believe anything I say, unless you can prove it for yourself".

                          And, I much prefer people I teach in those environments to disagree with me, and think for themselves, than the contrary.
                          Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                          So getting back to videos I am going to assume unless you have a big name, putting out a fundamentals video isn't going to get a lot of clicks.
                          But if you put out a "They won't see this coming choke" one is likely to.
                          Very true, sadly.

                          People are always fascinated with flash moves, hot moves, etc., etc.

                          A good example in Judo is the phenomenon that people tend to see and watch for the finish.

                          Even the names of the throws are usually the names of the finish.

                          Meanwhile, all the magic was the posture, grips, footwork, off balance, and entry that resulted in the finish becoming available...

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by Krampus View Post
                            grips
                            Man I will tell ya, grips blow my mind, the margin of success or failure can be down to as something so sublime as a grip and that grip being at just the right freaking place.
                            I know this isn't even always the case but when it is, it is.
                            Of course Grips can set the pace of a match, who has tempo, and what defensive and offensive options their are, who will win in a race for technique an attack or defense.
                            Grips are fucking crazy is all I am saying.
                            Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                            –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                              Man I will tell ya, grips blow my mind, the margin of success or failure can be down to as something so sublime as a grip and that grip being at just the right freaking place.
                              I know this isn't even always the case but when it is, it is.
                              Of course Grips can set the pace of a match, who has tempo, and what defensive and offensive options their are, who will win in a race for technique an attack or defense.
                              Grips are fucking crazy is all I am saying.
                              When I do newaza, gi or no gi, I barely grip at all.

                              And even when I do standing Judo, my grips are very light.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Krampus View Post
                                When I do newaza, gi or no gi, I barely grip at all.

                                And even when I do standing Judo, my grips are very light.
                                Huh, very interesting, saw Mat Thompson I think it was talking about some old school passing where you don't grip at all.
                                So what are you doing instead, is it just framing?
                                Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                                –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                                Comment

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