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    Originally posted by goodlun View Post
    I think you really are throwing out a strawman here.
    I don't think anyone is saying anything about always being better than your opponent.

    The message at least from me is this.
    As a matter of "self defense" if you have an art that really centers around ground fighting you should have a more reliable vessel to get the fight to the ground other than dragging takedowns and guard pulls.
    I don't care how good of a guard player I am, in a situation on the street I much rather not pull an opponent down onto me.
    Yes I do know such methods are serviceable and fuck I am probably on record here more than anyone else stating the fact that a bad plan that works is better than a good plan that doesn't.
    Or what I usually say is "a bad plan well executed is better than a good plan poorly executed"
    This statement is really for the guys that are training for the sport, in the end they still benefit in a physical confrontation and better than a lot of the TMA stuff.
    But and its a big BUT if you are specifically practicing for self defense reasons its much better to have booth a good plan and the ability to execute it.
    As such if that is what one is actually selling then yes they should have a strong top game including good solid take downs to the top and a very strong and good focus on hand and wrist control.
    Right, you don't want to pull the guy down on top of you. Speaking self defense.

    From what our BJJ instructor went over last night, you don't really even WANT to be on the ground. You want to get up off of the ground.
    I'm sure Rayce is familiar with that concept.
    1.) If you are on the ground, keep distance between you and your attacker by using your legs (pushing/kicking). It's not a BJJ match, you are not trying to suck in the guy who is trying to get close enough to punch your face in..
    2.) If the attacker gets close enough to connect, and you can't push him off, close off the space (hugging and closed guard), work angles to sweep or take back or otherwise break something.
    3.) Get up safely ASAP.

    That's as far as he went.

    Comment


      Originally posted by BKR View Post
      Right, you don't want to pull the guy down on top of you. Speaking self defense.
      Unless he's bludgeoning you with unanswered blows and Retreat isn't an option for whatever reason? I just don't like the idea where something is completely taken off the table. If shit is heading south quick you may need to change the situation in any way possible. Dropping back to guard and playing a feet on hips guard with up kicks may be that needed option for making that space needed to retreat, set up a takedown ,score a Ko with up kicks, or make space for you to pull your pistol?
      I have a lot of standing choke variations and set ups that are great for self defense and security purposes that are much perfered over a ground battle. Of course there is the striking and retreating as options but the world is full of uncertainty. I think the idea is to put yourself in the best position to win/go home that day.

      Jumping guard is not in my self defense curriculum and really doesn't need to be there. The idea that I am trying to get across is "never" is not the word I would use to say pulling guard is a good idea When fists are flying. Rarely is the word I would use. I think by the time guard would be a significant improvement over standing exchanging punches the Jiujitsuiero will already have a lot of rounds training in that fashion over the years.

      From what our BJJ instructor went over last night, you don't really even WANT to be on the ground. You want to get up off of the ground.
      I'm sure Rayce is familiar with that concept.
      1.) If you are on the ground, keep distance between you and your attacker by using your legs (pushing/kicking). It's not a BJJ match, you are not trying to suck in the guy who is trying to get close enough to punch your face in..
      2.) If the attacker gets close enough to connect, and you can't push him off, close off the space (hugging and closed guard), work angles to sweep or take back or otherwise break something.
      3.) Get up safely ASAP.

      That's as far as he went.
      make space and stand up in base is an mma and Gracie basics staple
      Last edited by Raycetpfl; 5/26/2016 12:50pm, .

      Comment


        Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
        Unless he's bludgeoning you with unanswered blows and Retreat isn't an option for whatever reason?
        Certainly everything is situational, you have to play what ever game gives you the highest odds of walking away.
        That might be pulling guard.
        Just that shouldn't be ones go to game plan for self defense, but you do what you have to do and if pulling guard is what makes sense by all means do it.
        However I would argue your still probably better off at least having a good single leg attack to do instead.

        Comment


          Originally posted by goodlun View Post
          Certainly everything is situational, you have to play what ever game gives you the highest odds of walking away.
          That might be pulling guard.
          Just that shouldn't be ones go to game plan for self defense, but you do what you have to do and if pulling guard is what makes sense by all means do it.
          However I would argue your still probably better off at least having a good single leg attack to do instead.
          Ideally you don't wanna land in a neutral position. You wanna land in a dominant position if going to the ground is the goal, so yeah of course. I like the big throws and thigh lifts personally if I get my choice but life isn't always fair.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
            Unless he's bludgeoning you with unanswered blows and Retreat isn't an option for whatever reason? I just don't like the idea where something is completely taken off the table. If shit is heading south quick you may need to change the situation in any way possible. Dropping back to guard and playing a feet on hips guard with up kicks may be that needed option for making that space needed to retreat, set up a takedown ,score a Ko with up kicks, or make space for you to pull your pistol?
            I have a lot of standing choke variations and set ups that are great for self defense and security purposes that are much perfered over a ground battle. Of course there is the striking and retreating as options but the world is full of uncertainty. I think the idea is to put yourself in the best position to win/go home that day.

            Jumping guard is not in my self defense curriculum and really doesn't need to be there. The idea that I am trying to get across is "never" is not the word I would use to say pulling guard is a good idea When fists are flying. Rarely is the word I would use. I think by the time guard would be a significant improvement over standing exchanging punches the Jiujitsuiero will already have a lot of rounds training in that fashion over the years.

            make space and stand up in base is an mma and Gracie basics staple
            I was writing from a very basic perspective, Rayce. Nothing is ever truly ever "off the table".

            We had one guys who said he would pull his pistol and shoot an unarmed guy who was charging him. LOL! Dead silence...I chimed in and said you might have a tough time explaining that one to a prosecutor and then jury...

            Comment


              Originally posted by BKR View Post
              I was writing from a very basic perspective, Rayce. Nothing is ever truly ever "off the table".
              Some times I feel like everyone goes too far away from what happened in the early UFC's. Royce put away a lot of pretty skilled dudes off his back. That game plan still has legs. It seems to be the thing now to pretend that it's an absolute horrible idea that is doomed to failure. There's a lot of scenarios where it is a one on one attack at it would be a viable option. I guess I unfairly grouped you guys in with that group.
              I mean you're not always fighting 100 people with machetes and if you are in don't think there is a good game plan for that.
              We had one guys who said he would pull his pistol and shoot an unarmed guy who was charging him. LOL! Dead silence...I chimed in and said you might have a tough time explaining that one to a prosecutor and then jury...
              Just make sure you are in FL and he is a black kid and apparently you can get away with it and sell the gun for a 1/4 million.

              Comment


                Originally posted by BKR View Post
                I was writing from a very basic perspective, Rayce. Nothing is ever truly ever "off the table".

                We had one guys who said he would pull his pistol and shoot an unarmed guy who was charging him. LOL! Dead silence...I chimed in and said you might have a tough time explaining that one to a prosecutor and then jury...
                And yet unarmed men do commit murder.

                If the pistol wielder was very old or disabled or otherwise not a match for the attacker, that might have been the pistol wielder's only chance to defend themselves.

                Particularly given the risk of the attacker taking the weapon off of the person carrying the weapon once things got physical.

                Here's the deal, the initiator of an attack loses some sympathy points from me regarding the damage they sustain when the defender decides to use violence to stop violence.

                I understand there are rules of engagement.

                But I think that people should understand that if they initiate physical violence, that a defender may feel that it is reasonable to stand their ground and interpret that attack as potentially life threatening (as all street fights are, in reality), and employ a serious response to stop the attacker attempting to hurt them.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
                  Some times I feel like everyone goes too far away from what happened in the early UFC's. Royce put away a lot of pretty skilled dudes off his back. That game plan still has legs. It seems to be the thing now to pretend that it's an absolute horrible idea that is doomed to failure. There's a lot of scenarios where it is a one on one attack at it would be a viable option. I guess I unfairly grouped you guys in with that group.
                  I mean you're not always fighting 100 people with machetes and if you are in don't think there is a good game plan for that.

                  Just make sure you are in FL and he is a black kid and apparently you can get away with it and sell the gun for a 1/4 million.
                  UFC ? Really?

                  Huge skill gap there, Rayce. I thought we were talking in terms of self defense type situations. Not to take away from Royce's abilities in the least.

                  Not doomed to failure, how about just likely not to be the first choice overall ?

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                    And yet unarmed men do commit murder.

                    If the pistol wielder was very old or disabled or otherwise not a match for the attacker, that might have been the pistol wielder's only chance to defend themselves.

                    Particularly given the risk of the attacker taking the weapon off of the person carrying the weapon once things got physical.

                    Here's the deal, the initiator of an attack loses some sympathy points from me regarding the damage they sustain when the defender decides to use violence to stop violence.

                    I understand there are rules of engagement.

                    But I think that people should understand that if they initiate physical violence, that a defender may feel that it is reasonable to stand their ground and interpret that attack as potentially life threatening (as all street fights are, in reality), and employ a serious response to stop the attacker attempting to hurt them.
                    I get that. I kept my mouth shut in class after my initial comment, because I wanted to roll, not discuss the subtleties of using lethal force with a teenager making...silly comments because the coach had him out there as uke and he liked the attention.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by BKR View Post

                      Not doomed to failure, how about just likely not to be the first choice overall ?
                      agreed without a doubt.

                      Comment


                        At your level I would stick with learning some simple wrestling moves (And this is coming from a Judoka). Judo moves are complex and while are very effective, take many years to really master. A good single leg is effective and it is low risk, so if you blow it, you won't get in too bad of a position. Over time if you want to really excel at takedowns in the gi, then you can really start to dive into Judo and it will pay dividends

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